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[Music]

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welcome back to another episode of

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liminal frames

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i'm your co-host nathan and i'm joined

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with my good friend darren exo academia

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and darren it's been a while we've uh

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done 12 episodes of the show

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and took a little bit of a break for the

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summer which was really great and it's

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not that we did nothing we kind of

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worked on some other projects

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uh some collaboratively and otherwise

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but it's nice to really kind of get back

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in the chair and pick up the show again

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and and take it forward particularly

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with a lot of the things that are going

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on

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in the community before we kind of jump

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into that i just want to check in with

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you how you doing and what's going on

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with you right now

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i'm doing great thanks and yeah it was

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been a great summer

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for numerous reasons

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writing and research and

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fall for me you know especially

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beginning of september has always kind

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of been ever since you know we were in

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school as kids has kind of been this uh

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chiming into a new season of life um

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that comes around every year

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where you know you really dig in uh and

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and research and um so that fits right

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in with this ongoing topic that we're

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interested in with the ufo phenomenon

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and general paranormality

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so as the the leaves begin to fall uh as

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they do here in the blue ridge mountains

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i'm always ready to really dig in and it

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just feels a little bit different than

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the summer vibe

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but yeah a lot has happened since we

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last recorded an episode which was only

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a few months ago amazingly

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yeah it feels like ages ago and i love

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the fact that you brought up the seasons

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because i do think that's a a good sort

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of way to kick off this episode and that

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that's really thinking about the seasons

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of change that we all go through both

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just throughout the year but in a

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community of interest uh in a topic that

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we're all uh invested in in one way or

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another

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we also go through seasons of change and

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uh just to kind of think about where we

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are right now

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in this topic kind of where we've come

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from where we might be going

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there's a lot to reflect on

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and if you know we can kind of set the

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table a little bit

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for the state of the nation if you will

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in ufology or in you know

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phenomenological studies

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uh

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you know there's a lot that has happened

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there have been

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some hearings there's additional

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language that seems to be moving through

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congress that could provide some

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significant protections to

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whistleblowers who may want to come

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forward and reveal what they know about

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you know black budget programs or

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historical government involvement with

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the ufo topic

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that certainly seems like it's gaining a

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lot of momentum

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we've got

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additional kind of

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movies coming out uh i know one in

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particular from james fox that's on the

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way a moment of contact about a case in

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virginia brazil i'm sure there's a lot

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of interest around that

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uh we have of course a lot of folks

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continuing to do research um

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particularly we've seen some

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emergence of

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the application of ai into researching

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historical record of the this topic both

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of

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individuals who have played a role in uh

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in quote-unquote the cover-up or have

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been involved with things like the

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disclosure project and uh

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and we're looking back and kind of

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verifying whether or not they in fact

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were who they said they were and

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it's interesting to me at least to kind

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of see

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these new vectors of analysis applied to

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a topic that has been you know active

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for so very long and then on top of all

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that uh

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you know kind of momentum which i think

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if we were to take stock you know

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everything that has happened right now

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and look back say five years we would be

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really amazed at kind of where we are

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but on top of that you know forward

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progress that that i think is true we

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also have

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a lot of uh sort of infighting and

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uh you know kind of drama uh there's um

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some factionality that seems to be

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emerging and none of that is new i think

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that's important to kind of

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you know mention as well that you know

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drama is kind of always a part of this

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topic um

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and it has been forever

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there's a lot of folks that are heavily

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invested in it uh both you know

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personally financially and other

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otherwise and anytime you've got that

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level of investment you're going to have

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some sort of heated

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exchange from time to time but you know

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before we kind of start unpacking all

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that and and going into some of that

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detail i also wanted to sort of remind

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our listeners those who have been with

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us

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since the beginning of the year through

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the 12 episodes that we've already done

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and those of us who might be joining us

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for the first time

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right now

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wanted to sort of remind folks kind of

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what one of the missions or purposes of

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liminal frames happens to be and i think

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one of the things that we

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excel at is being able to sort of have a

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nuanced uh level-headed conversation

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about the topic more broadly you know

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what we want to be able to do is take a

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lot of different tools uh look at these

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uh issues and topics of interest from

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many different angles and as we turn

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them over and examine them from those

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different facets

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the the idea the hope is that by doing

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that we provide uh folks with a better

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ability to kind of think through the

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implications of these things

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to not look at them from a purely

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one-dimensional level

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because if there's anything that we have

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learned in our own journeys with this

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the

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multi-dimensional approach to this topic

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has served us very very well

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because there's a lot of uncertainty

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there's a lot of unknowns in this area

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and so to keep an open mind about what

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all the different possibilities might be

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is is you know serves us very very well

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as more facts come out we can kind of

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then pivot and think about those facts

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in new ways but exo i don't know if you

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want to touch on any of that both kind

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of where we are and also just like what

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we're trying to do with liminal frames

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yeah some great opening points there um

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yeah i would just highlight what you

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said there in terms of

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a major impetus for us even beginning

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this show because lord knows there's

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plenty of ufo shows out there uh you

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know with podcasts and youtube channels

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but what we kind of noticed was missing

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from the conversation

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which is kind of a secondary matter it's

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more that we did this because this is

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what we feel called to and it fits both

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of our personalities

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um but we've you know

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been involved in the past in looking at

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topics

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uh with a very

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overarching perspective with a

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a view that tries to take in multiple

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viewpoints

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multi-perspectival is the word that i

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use for that

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which is basically saying

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you've seen these famous analogies where

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you have a certain shape and depending

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where you're standing the shape will

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literally look different it could be a

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circle it could be a cylinder

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it could be a rectangle and the point of

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those is to demonstrate to people that

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you know hardline truth is kind of the

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wrong way to look at it that something

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can be simultaneously

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multiple things depending on your

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viewpoint and um

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you know a more

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full perspective takes into

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consideration all of those different

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vantage points

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so that's that's really key um because

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especially in this topic which

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you know it's interesting when we first

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started i remember seeing someone

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comment that

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well you guys will probably hit all the

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major topics in about 10 episodes and

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you'll have nothing more to talk about

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and i thought oh contraire you know

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not only is there constantly new things

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happening as we said so much has

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happened since we last recorded a show

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which was only uh you know maybe back in

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june or something

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but there's so many different angles at

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which you can approach this topic

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because

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it

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ultimately ends up

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pointing towards the very nature of

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reality itself that that's we'll get

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into later on how ufology gets um

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flares up into these different drama

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points around things like woo or what

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some people would consider woo right

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because that in itself is kind of a

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pejorative term for a lot of people

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um

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but it's just it's is there's so much

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involved and you can't study this topic

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for very long before you inevitably end

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up asking the biggest questions

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why are we here how did we get here who

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put us here where is this all going how

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much are we being ongoingly interacted

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with

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and the very nature by which these

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others interact with us is so

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otherworldly

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that you don't just say do they just

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have a more advanced view of physics

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than we do

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but perhaps is the construct by which we

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base all of our understanding of what

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reality is perhaps

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open to question

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and that's where we ultimately land so

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whenever we talk about the state of the

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nation with this topic we're just

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giving a glimpse here of how much you

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have to open the aperture how much you

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have to really take into consideration

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so many different factors and that's why

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like i said i think in one of the first

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couple episodes you could do 500

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episodes of liminal frames and still not

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even you know crack the surface really

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absolutely and you know i think it's

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interesting too that a lot of folks

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might bemoan the fact that there are so

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many different ways to look at this

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topic

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that there are so many different

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theories

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hypotheses that

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some might look at that and say

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you know see it's just a it's a low

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information zone and everyone's just

283
00:10:04,070 --> 00:10:01,440
kind of throwing stuff out there and

284
00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:04,080
there's nothing that we can look at as a

285
00:10:07,670 --> 00:10:06,560
sort of consensus of opinion and

286
00:10:09,990 --> 00:10:07,680
therefore

287
00:10:11,910 --> 00:10:10,000
uh with no consensus opinion it's not

288
00:10:14,630 --> 00:10:11,920
really a topic that is worthy of study

289
00:10:17,590 --> 00:10:14,640
and i would push back on that to say

290
00:10:20,389 --> 00:10:17,600
there are many things in our culture

291
00:10:21,590 --> 00:10:20,399
that don't have consensus opinion and in

292
00:10:23,590 --> 00:10:21,600
fact there are many scientific

293
00:10:26,150 --> 00:10:23,600
disciplines and academic disciplines

294
00:10:27,910 --> 00:10:26,160
whose very you know kind of purpose is

295
00:10:29,670 --> 00:10:27,920
to look at

296
00:10:32,389 --> 00:10:29,680
the same kind of

297
00:10:34,310 --> 00:10:32,399
phenomena in in human life whether that

298
00:10:35,910 --> 00:10:34,320
be biology or

299
00:10:38,389 --> 00:10:35,920
human behavior

300
00:10:40,230 --> 00:10:38,399
uh economics you know you can insert a

301
00:10:42,550 --> 00:10:40,240
lot of different topics here religion

302
00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:42,560
philosophy you know we have entire

303
00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:44,320
departments and disciplines and

304
00:10:47,509 --> 00:10:46,320
universities devoted to the study of

305
00:10:48,310 --> 00:10:47,519
these things

306
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:48,320
and

307
00:10:54,389 --> 00:10:52,000
the chief goal among them is to look at

308
00:10:57,190 --> 00:10:54,399
these areas of interest from different

309
00:10:58,389 --> 00:10:57,200
perspectives and and try to find

310
00:11:01,269 --> 00:10:58,399
something that

311
00:11:04,470 --> 00:11:01,279
you know has a a a high level

312
00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:04,480
of of meaning uh that of you know sort

313
00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:06,720
of narrative uh

314
00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:08,640
uh veracity you know that becomes

315
00:11:13,030 --> 00:11:11,120
something that is useful in a way to

316
00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:13,040
understand what these things are and

317
00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:14,399
that's essentially what we're trying to

318
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:15,760
do as well

319
00:11:19,509 --> 00:11:17,200
and what the community of interest is

320
00:11:21,269 --> 00:11:19,519
trying to do as well and that that is to

321
00:11:22,630 --> 00:11:21,279
you know kind of look at this issue from

322
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:22,640
a lot of different facets a lot of

323
00:11:27,269 --> 00:11:24,560
different experiences a lot of different

324
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:27,279
disciplines applied to different kind of

325
00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:28,880
lenses if you will

326
00:11:33,509 --> 00:11:31,519
and and in doing so hopefully try to

327
00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:33,519
find certain narratives that emerge that

328
00:11:38,069 --> 00:11:36,800
that have great explanatory power and i

329
00:11:39,829 --> 00:11:38,079
i don't know if you want to touch on

330
00:11:41,910 --> 00:11:39,839
that to me that that's just something

331
00:11:43,509 --> 00:11:41,920
that just feels natural and i'm not

332
00:11:45,509 --> 00:11:43,519
totally i'm totally comfortable with

333
00:11:47,430 --> 00:11:45,519
that it doesn't bother me at all but for

334
00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:47,440
others i see there's a lot of pushback

335
00:11:51,269 --> 00:11:49,200
that you know there's just too much out

336
00:11:52,710 --> 00:11:51,279
there and therefore it's not

337
00:11:55,509 --> 00:11:52,720
worth study at all

338
00:11:57,190 --> 00:11:55,519
yeah absolutely i mean i think again for

339
00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:57,200
you and i we've discussed this before on

340
00:12:01,590 --> 00:11:59,680
this show that we we've been through

341
00:12:03,910 --> 00:12:01,600
several iterations where we adopted a

342
00:12:06,470 --> 00:12:03,920
completely different world views um and

343
00:12:08,550 --> 00:12:06,480
and to to be clear to people just how

344
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:08,560
how much that entails

345
00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:10,399
when you adopt a new worldview it's not

346
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:11,600
just about

347
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:13,839
seeing the same things differently it's

348
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:16,639
literally about seeing different things

349
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:19,279
that the reality you construct around

350
00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:20,000
you

351
00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:22,240
is partly determined by

352
00:12:26,949 --> 00:12:24,639
your worldview and while that may sound

353
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:26,959
ridiculous to some people there's

354
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:30,160
mounting evidence pointing in this uh

355
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:32,320
both just in neuroscience

356
00:12:38,230 --> 00:12:36,000
and um evolutionary game theory uh and

357
00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:38,240
physics it's just it's very clear that

358
00:12:41,990 --> 00:12:40,160
we

359
00:12:43,910 --> 00:12:42,000
initially taken some information and

360
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:43,920
then we formed these kind of cache

361
00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:47,200
pockets or these uh these memories

362
00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:50,639
that we use to primarily re-represent

363
00:12:54,629 --> 00:12:53,440
reality as it has been to us previously

364
00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:54,639
and so

365
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:56,480
i've been reading a great book by ian

366
00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:59,040
mcgilchrist on this topic

367
00:13:02,629 --> 00:13:00,320
that

368
00:13:04,230 --> 00:13:02,639
in order to save memory basically

369
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:04,240
working memory

370
00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:06,320
what our brains do is pull up

371
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:08,240
information relevant to what we're

372
00:13:13,430 --> 00:13:10,320
experiencing now and unless there's

373
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:13,440
something really startlingly different

374
00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:15,360
it'll just re-represent what we already

375
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:17,279
have seen and experienced

376
00:13:20,389 --> 00:13:19,200
and that happens all the time of course

377
00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:20,399
this is happening

378
00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:23,200
immediately and so we

379
00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:24,800
lose self-awareness around the fact that

380
00:13:28,470 --> 00:13:27,040
this is what's really going on but i'm

381
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,480
sitting in my office right now which

382
00:13:32,710 --> 00:13:30,720
i've sat in it every day pretty much uh

383
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:32,720
you know mostly over the last several

384
00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:35,360
years and so my mind can just sort of

385
00:13:39,829 --> 00:13:37,680
fill in the gaps with cached memory of

386
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:39,839
what this office looks like rather than

387
00:13:44,710 --> 00:13:42,240
allocating resources to re

388
00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:44,720
uh representing it right

389
00:13:52,069 --> 00:13:48,240
in real time so that is so key i would

390
00:13:53,829 --> 00:13:52,079
also add finally to your point that

391
00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:53,839
i remember coming across this one person

392
00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:55,760
that really really was into quantum

393
00:13:58,949 --> 00:13:56,639
theory

394
00:14:00,550 --> 00:13:58,959
and their their point was this is my

395
00:14:02,949 --> 00:14:00,560
view of how the phenomenon fits in with

396
00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:02,959
quantum theory and

397
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:04,959
science is pretty much 100 on board that

398
00:14:07,829 --> 00:14:06,639
this is mainstream science now so we're

399
00:14:09,590 --> 00:14:07,839
good to go

400
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:09,600
and i kind of picked up from that that

401
00:14:13,509 --> 00:14:11,360
they were thinking that

402
00:14:15,269 --> 00:14:13,519
from here on out everybody believes that

403
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:15,279
quantum theory is is the you know the

404
00:14:21,189 --> 00:14:18,880
final standard for reality uh what they

405
00:14:23,910 --> 00:14:21,199
don't realize is that like you pointed

406
00:14:25,269 --> 00:14:23,920
to there's this constant flux going on

407
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:25,279
actually between

408
00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:26,800
uh just like you have with certain

409
00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:28,480
industries where you have like a mature

410
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:30,240
industry then you'll have a declining

411
00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:31,920
industry then you know then you have a

412
00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:34,000
new disruptive industry that comes in or

413
00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:36,399
a company that can disrupt a previous

414
00:14:39,509 --> 00:14:37,440
industry

415
00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:39,519
in the same way in science as thomas

416
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:42,240
goon pointed out we go through

417
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:44,320
scientific revolutions that's how we've

418
00:14:49,110 --> 00:14:46,560
actually progressed and notice that word

419
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:49,120
revolution it's not just evolution it's

420
00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:51,760
not just iteration it's not just fine

421
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:53,839
tuning it's literally tearing up the

422
00:14:59,030 --> 00:14:57,040
floorboards and starting again so it was

423
00:15:01,670 --> 00:14:59,040
not that long ago about a hundred years

424
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:01,680
ago that we had the revelation and the

425
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:04,639
revolution of quantum mechanics that's

426
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:07,120
not all that long ago much of mainstream

427
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:09,120
science still has not come to terms with

428
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:11,600
what that actually means for reality but

429
00:15:15,430 --> 00:15:13,440
we would be foolish

430
00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:15,440
to the nth degree to assume that's the

431
00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:17,279
last of those kind of revolutions we'll

432
00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:19,920
go through and in fact most recent

433
00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:22,720
science in terms of physics is pointing

434
00:15:27,509 --> 00:15:25,680
towards this deeper structure that makes

435
00:15:29,110 --> 00:15:27,519
space-time itself

436
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:29,120
and quantum theory look like a

437
00:15:33,910 --> 00:15:32,160
projection that emerges from some deeper

438
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:33,920
structure so

439
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:35,920
yes we are still in the midst of this

440
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:38,720
and i would just say to people

441
00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:40,800
try to learn to be comfortable with that

442
00:15:46,949 --> 00:15:43,440
discomfort uh try to move away from

443
00:15:49,350 --> 00:15:46,959
relying on stasis to feel like uh your

444
00:15:51,749 --> 00:15:49,360
world is worth living in you know i mean

445
00:15:53,749 --> 00:15:51,759
i think that this is just the adventure

446
00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:53,759
we keep saying this i keep saying this

447
00:15:57,189 --> 00:15:55,199
right that try to approach it more like

448
00:15:59,110 --> 00:15:57,199
an adventure where we're discovering new

449
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:59,120
things every day just like kids do and

450
00:16:02,949 --> 00:16:00,720
they don't get overwhelmed by the fact

451
00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:02,959
that there's plenty plenty they don't

452
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:03,759
know

453
00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:06,000
at some point we trade off that for

454
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:07,920
certitude right we want that feeling of

455
00:16:11,749 --> 00:16:09,920
certitude and i would say let's just

456
00:16:15,749 --> 00:16:11,759
return to that kind of childlike nature

457
00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:17,430
great point great point

458
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:19,040
and you know it's funny too because like

459
00:16:24,389 --> 00:16:21,279
as you pointed out the the sort of

460
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:24,399
competition of ideas this friction uh

461
00:16:29,829 --> 00:16:27,519
between competing theories you know this

462
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:29,839
lends to our progress and and that's

463
00:16:33,829 --> 00:16:31,600
something that is just a fact and that

464
00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:33,839
has been a fact of human civilization

465
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,360
since we've been doing things and so

466
00:16:41,829 --> 00:16:39,920
it's funny to me that that's the way

467
00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:41,839
things work

468
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:45,199
yet we still have a lot of drama that we

469
00:16:50,790 --> 00:16:48,000
kind of fixate on and we kind of confuse

470
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:50,800
the the drama the sort of level of

471
00:16:54,629 --> 00:16:52,800
investment we have in a particular

472
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:54,639
worldview and idea

473
00:16:58,790 --> 00:16:57,600
uh we confuse the importance of of that

474
00:17:01,269 --> 00:16:58,800
versus

475
00:17:03,509 --> 00:17:01,279
the the kind of the process itself and

476
00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:03,519
so you know that might be a good segue

477
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:04,640
into kind of

478
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:06,480
talking a little bit about the drama

479
00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:08,480
that we've seen

480
00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:11,120
in the community of interest recently

481
00:17:15,270 --> 00:17:13,600
um and and you know some of that much of

482
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:15,280
that stems from

483
00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:19,039
this heavy investment in specific ideas

484
00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:22,160
constituting what the phenomenon what it

485
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:24,880
quote unquote actually is so we have a

486
00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:27,600
lot of uh sort of tribalism or or you

487
00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:30,320
know high degree of uh

488
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:32,880
investment in certain you know specific

489
00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:35,360
ideas and what's at play here

490
00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:37,280
and and folks kind of put themselves in

491
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:39,520
the in the those camps and defend those

492
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:42,400
ideas very vigorously against anything

493
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:44,480
that kind of comes against that

494
00:17:47,830 --> 00:17:45,840
particular

495
00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:47,840
notion and that's you know that's not

496
00:17:51,669 --> 00:17:50,160
something that is abnormal i mean humans

497
00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:51,679
are going to do that they're going to

498
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:53,360
argue a point if particularly if they

499
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:54,400
find it to be

500
00:17:58,150 --> 00:17:56,160
you know very convincing

501
00:18:00,070 --> 00:17:58,160
but it's one thing to kind of argue a

502
00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:00,080
position

503
00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:02,080
on its merits and it's another thing to

504
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:03,200
kind of take

505
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:06,320
those arguments to the level of personal

506
00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:07,280
attack

507
00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:08,640
uh to

508
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:09,919
you know kind of the

509
00:18:14,470 --> 00:18:11,679
the low road you know being very

510
00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:14,480
vitriolic and toxic in the way that we

511
00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:17,600
kind of go to bat for these positions

512
00:18:20,710 --> 00:18:19,200
and so i don't know what what what are

513
00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:20,720
your thoughts on

514
00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:22,880
you know what we've seen particularly

515
00:18:26,789 --> 00:18:24,960
recently with some of the

516
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:26,799
you know kind of uh

517
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:28,880
little twitter spats or

518
00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:30,559
uh you know

519
00:18:34,390 --> 00:18:32,400
personality wars that we've kind of seen

520
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:34,400
pop up i mean i know that's nothing new

521
00:18:38,549 --> 00:18:36,480
within ufology or really human history

522
00:18:40,310 --> 00:18:38,559
at all but you know how do you look at

523
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:40,320
that and and what are some good sort of

524
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:42,720
takeaways to to think about if we want

525
00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:43,520
to

526
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:45,280
uh you know kind of look at that in a

527
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:46,880
better light

528
00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:49,120
yeah that's a great question and a big

529
00:18:53,750 --> 00:18:51,600
one to to tackle um

530
00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:53,760
i would i would begin by saying that

531
00:18:57,909 --> 00:18:54,840
some

532
00:18:59,590 --> 00:18:57,919
people rather than opting for

533
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:59,600
contemplating and considering different

534
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:01,280
ideas or different notions different

535
00:19:03,909 --> 00:19:02,640
hypotheses

536
00:19:06,150 --> 00:19:03,919
what they end up doing instead is

537
00:19:07,990 --> 00:19:06,160
aligning with certain individuals right

538
00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:08,000
certain people

539
00:19:12,230 --> 00:19:10,160
and therefore even if those people that

540
00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:12,240
they are aligning with or putting all

541
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:14,240
their trust and hopes in

542
00:19:17,909 --> 00:19:15,840
if those people

543
00:19:19,029 --> 00:19:17,919
uh that are these sort of figureheads

544
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:19,039
change their

545
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:21,600
perspective or evolve

546
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:22,960
um sometimes the people who are

547
00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:24,559
following them will just

548
00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:26,240
not even acknowledge that there's been a

549
00:19:29,029 --> 00:19:27,120
shift

550
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:29,039
so when people might come in

551
00:19:31,909 --> 00:19:30,640
you know well-meaning people might come

552
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:31,919
in and say

553
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:33,039
well it's interesting because this

554
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:34,640
figurehead i'm just using that word

555
00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:36,720
creatively

556
00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:38,000
used to say this but now they're saying

557
00:19:41,669 --> 00:19:39,600
this that's that's kind of a change and

558
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:41,679
some people that again support that

559
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:43,200
figurehead and put all their hopes in

560
00:19:47,190 --> 00:19:45,520
that figureheads being right

561
00:19:49,029 --> 00:19:47,200
they will actually try to

562
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:49,039
uh defend this person what they think is

563
00:19:52,710 --> 00:19:50,400
defending by saying oh no there's been

564
00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:52,720
no shift you know and it reminds me of

565
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:55,280
when uh one time you know you and i both

566
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:57,039
come from this this christian background

567
00:20:00,789 --> 00:19:58,799
and and and church history and

568
00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:00,799
understanding all that i remember one

569
00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:02,799
time this church i was involved in in

570
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:05,679
houston uh back in the day

571
00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:07,280
they had this open session where people

572
00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:08,720
from the community could come and ask

573
00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:10,240
questions about the bible and about

574
00:20:14,549 --> 00:20:12,480
christianity and this one woman got up

575
00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:14,559
and was very thoughtful and said

576
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:16,640
well what do you make sense of the sort

577
00:20:20,789 --> 00:20:19,120
of different depiction of god

578
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:20,799
in the old testament verses the new

579
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:22,559
testament the new testament seems much

580
00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:23,440
more

581
00:20:27,430 --> 00:20:24,720
caring

582
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:27,440
open-hearted welcoming much more

583
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:29,440
condemning and rule-centered in the old

584
00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:30,640
testament

585
00:20:34,789 --> 00:20:32,559
and the response of this one pastor

586
00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:34,799
which was a friend of mine was to to

587
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:36,880
deny that there was any difference right

588
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:38,960
he basically just shot down her points

589
00:20:45,029 --> 00:20:42,640
and said you're wrong next you know and

590
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:45,039
that was not helpful and it not only was

591
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:47,360
it not helpful but

592
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:48,960
people are smarter than that most people

593
00:20:51,669 --> 00:20:50,400
are smarter than that they'll recognize

594
00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:51,679
that you're just

595
00:20:56,149 --> 00:20:54,080
deflecting and denying an issue rather

596
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:56,159
than actually addressing it so that's

597
00:21:00,950 --> 00:20:58,880
the first thing is to say that um

598
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:00,960
we need to be open that if even people

599
00:21:05,750 --> 00:21:03,280
that we put a lot of faith and trust in

600
00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:05,760
um if they shift position it's okay to

601
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:07,360
acknowledge that you know and and i

602
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:10,640
think we we look more open-minded uh to

603
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:13,520
the data when we do that

604
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:14,320
but

605
00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:16,480
to that point further

606
00:21:21,029 --> 00:21:18,960
people tend to often

607
00:21:23,590 --> 00:21:21,039
lump people into either the hero or the

608
00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:23,600
villain category right so

609
00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:25,200
i have to admit even for myself if

610
00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:27,280
there's one way that i'm susceptible to

611
00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:29,440
this it's in the villains right so a

612
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:34,000
mick west is often a challenge for me um

613
00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:35,440
even though as you and i have talked

614
00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:36,880
about privately

615
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:39,120
he's doing the best he can based on

616
00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:41,760
where he's at in his current world view

617
00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:43,840
his current world view is more closed

618
00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:46,240
than he is self aware of and it

619
00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:48,559
determines what he even will consider as

620
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:50,720
data or even possibilities of where that

621
00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:53,520
data could lead but nevertheless he's

622
00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:54,320
still

623
00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:56,320
doing the best he can based on where he

624
00:22:01,590 --> 00:22:00,000
is it does no good to paint him only as

625
00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:01,600
a villain like he's darth vader to the

626
00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:03,919
community and we all have to you know

627
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:06,480
try to take up arms against the empire

628
00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:09,360
right um he is a human being

629
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:12,000
with a worldview moving along a spectrum

630
00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:13,840
like all of us

631
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:16,159
on the flip side there are people that

632
00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:18,080
others consider heroes and they will

633
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:20,559
defend them to the nth degree

634
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:22,480
which ultimately is not even helpful for

635
00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:24,080
those people

636
00:22:28,470 --> 00:22:26,480
that are those figureheads because

637
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:28,480
we all make mistakes we all have a shift

638
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:29,840
in perspective i'll be the first to

639
00:22:33,909 --> 00:22:32,000
admit my perspective on this phenomenon

640
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:33,919
has shifted numerous times and will

641
00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:37,200
change yet i guarantee you uh so i don't

642
00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:39,120
need someone defending me by saying to

643
00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:41,280
somebody else who's a critic necessarily

644
00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:42,880
oh well exo used to say this and now

645
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:44,240
he's saying this

646
00:22:47,669 --> 00:22:45,600
i'll be the first to admit there has

647
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:47,679
been some shift and i think if we're

648
00:22:53,270 --> 00:22:50,159
diligently engaging with this phenomenon

649
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:53,280
to use a phrasemar friend james eindoli

650
00:22:58,310 --> 00:22:55,679
then that should be

651
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:58,320
the the fruit of that endeavor so i

652
00:23:02,390 --> 00:23:00,240
would just say to people

653
00:23:05,110 --> 00:23:02,400
try to be more self-aware about this

654
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:05,120
heroin and villaining of of the entire

655
00:23:09,190 --> 00:23:06,240
process

656
00:23:10,149 --> 00:23:09,200
and try to be a bit more nuanced about

657
00:23:14,070 --> 00:23:10,159
the

658
00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:14,080
that it doesn't ultimately serve any of

659
00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:16,080
us to put people into those two camps

660
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:18,720
and just leave it there

661
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:20,080
yeah i'm so glad you brought that up i

662
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:22,720
think it it really is uh

663
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:25,200
it does no one any favors uh you know

664
00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:27,760
particularly those folks that are you

665
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:29,039
know kind of

666
00:23:34,149 --> 00:23:32,320
pushing hardest on this uh for us to

667
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:34,159
you know kind of lionize them in the way

668
00:23:38,549 --> 00:23:36,640
that we often do

669
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:38,559
it's not to diminish the contributions

670
00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:40,240
that they are making and and every

671
00:23:44,870 --> 00:23:43,440
movement has its heroes its proponents

672
00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:44,880
those that are

673
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:47,200
making a significant difference in where

674
00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:48,720
things are going

675
00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:52,080
but to you know kind of take a position

676
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:53,120
that

677
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:55,440
essentially what we're talking about is

678
00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:58,240
robbing that person of their humanity

679
00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:00,720
you know we're we are we're taking that

680
00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:02,720
away from them the their

681
00:24:09,190 --> 00:24:06,240
their right to be a complex person with

682
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:09,200
different viewpoints evolving viewpoints

683
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:12,559
uh personality flaws uh things that that

684
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:14,799
they're really good at as well we're

685
00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:16,720
kind of robbing them of all of those

686
00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:19,520
things and instead flattening them into

687
00:24:22,549 --> 00:24:21,520
a very one-dimensional

688
00:24:23,430 --> 00:24:22,559
figure

689
00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:23,440
and

690
00:24:28,390 --> 00:24:25,039
you know believe it or not that has an

691
00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:28,400
impact on the individual um you know

692
00:24:33,029 --> 00:24:30,960
there is a

693
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:33,039
an absolute effect

694
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:34,799
when they're when you and this happens i

695
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:37,039
think in any you know kind of collection

696
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:38,640
of people

697
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:41,120
where if enough people

698
00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:44,880
formulate uh an idea of a person

699
00:24:51,350 --> 00:24:47,360
and and propagate that idea

700
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:51,360
very vigorously uh that that picture of

701
00:24:55,750 --> 00:24:52,960
the individual

702
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:55,760
does in some ways begin to be adopted by

703
00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:57,039
that person

704
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:59,120
on a personal level

705
00:25:02,470 --> 00:25:01,200
and that again does them a tremendous

706
00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:02,480
amount of harm

707
00:25:07,029 --> 00:25:04,720
and really gets in the way of at least

708
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:07,039
in my opinion it gets in the way

709
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:10,720
of what the overall sort of objective of

710
00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:13,120
that group happens to be

711
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:15,200
and so you see this time and time again

712
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:17,600
uh you know sort of leaders who

713
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:20,400
who recognize when this is happening uh

714
00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:22,000
you know if they're cognizant of it what

715
00:25:26,070 --> 00:25:24,480
they will try to do is kind of extricate

716
00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:26,080
themselves from the situation they'll

717
00:25:30,149 --> 00:25:28,400
try to you know diminish the role that

718
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:30,159
they have played

719
00:25:33,590 --> 00:25:32,080
because at some point

720
00:25:35,750 --> 00:25:33,600
their

721
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:35,760
sort of conception of who they are is

722
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:38,080
getting in the way of what the objective

723
00:25:42,149 --> 00:25:40,320
happens to be so either see that happen

724
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:42,159
or what you'll often see happen maybe

725
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:43,760
more often see happen

726
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:44,720
is

727
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:48,080
the leaders themselves will have a

728
00:25:52,230 --> 00:25:50,240
an incredible falling out you know that

729
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:52,240
they will basically kind of crash and

730
00:25:55,750 --> 00:25:53,039
burn

731
00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:55,760
in a very public fashion

732
00:26:00,950 --> 00:25:58,640
and and if that happens uh it can do a

733
00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:00,960
tremendous amount of harm uh to the to

734
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:02,960
the community and to kind of the at

735
00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:04,799
least from an outsider's perspective you

736
00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:06,720
know because those who may not be as

737
00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:08,559
familiar with kind of the

738
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:10,720
ins and outs of the topic and the uh you

739
00:26:14,870 --> 00:26:13,440
know the intricacies of the community uh

740
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,880
that have kind of been working through

741
00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:16,480
these issues they're just looking at

742
00:26:20,870 --> 00:26:18,320
this from the outside and saying oh look

743
00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:20,880
at so and so and how terrible of a

744
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:22,880
person they are and because they're

745
00:26:28,549 --> 00:26:25,679
terrible nothing that they have said or

746
00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:28,559
done is worthy of

747
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:30,480
an interest it has no validity the

748
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:32,320
entire thing that they stood for is

749
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:35,360
therefore just completely worthless and

750
00:26:39,830 --> 00:26:37,520
i think that you know just think about

751
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:39,840
the harm that that does both

752
00:26:42,710 --> 00:26:40,559
to

753
00:26:45,669 --> 00:26:42,720
the the objective of the community but

754
00:26:47,669 --> 00:26:45,679
also to those individuals themselves and

755
00:26:49,830 --> 00:26:47,679
so you know in short what i'm gonna what

756
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:49,840
i would argue for is to really bring

757
00:26:52,549 --> 00:26:50,640
back

758
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:52,559
uh into our conversation

759
00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:54,480
the human element you know to sort of

760
00:26:58,390 --> 00:26:55,760
try to

761
00:27:02,310 --> 00:26:58,400
uh guard against this tendency that we

762
00:27:04,710 --> 00:27:02,320
have to one-dimensionalize people uh to

763
00:27:07,269 --> 00:27:04,720
remove their complexity

764
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:07,279
and just rob them of the ability to have

765
00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:09,120
kind of a nuanced conversation and

766
00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:11,120
change over time

767
00:27:14,710 --> 00:27:13,200
yeah absolutely some some great points

768
00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:14,720
in there a couple things that i want to

769
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:16,720
build on a bit um

770
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:19,039
i really liked your point about

771
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:22,000
you know true leaders uh will will do

772
00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:23,600
their best to

773
00:27:27,269 --> 00:27:25,840
extricate themselves from the process at

774
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:27,279
some point and

775
00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:29,200
uh you know there's this expression that

776
00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:31,039
you know the best leaders in the end

777
00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:33,279
work themselves out of a job you know

778
00:27:36,470 --> 00:27:34,559
that that they

779
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:36,480
pass it on for everyone else to be able

780
00:27:40,149 --> 00:27:38,880
to pick up the torch and carry it on

781
00:27:41,669 --> 00:27:40,159
um

782
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:41,679
you know even think about historical

783
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:42,960
figures like

784
00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:45,919
jesus of nazareth for instance right um

785
00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:47,600
would say things like you will do even

786
00:27:52,789 --> 00:27:49,919
greater things than these right

787
00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:52,799
and again what's ironic is that it's

788
00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:55,600
it's that we as a civilization we as

789
00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:57,760
groups of people tend to

790
00:28:01,269 --> 00:27:58,720
really

791
00:28:03,990 --> 00:28:01,279
default to making heroes of these

792
00:28:06,070 --> 00:28:04,000
figures that began certain movements and

793
00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:06,080
you and i have discussed before

794
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:08,240
this notion i came across of

795
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:10,720
man myth monument right being these

796
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:13,440
three-step process we go through where

797
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:15,200
first it's a human being of course man

798
00:28:18,389 --> 00:28:16,720
or woman

799
00:28:20,070 --> 00:28:18,399
then there's a sort of mythos that

800
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:20,080
builds up around that person the further

801
00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:22,000
we get from when they actually lived

802
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:22,799
right

803
00:28:28,389 --> 00:28:26,080
we've talked a lot about religious

804
00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:28,399
history for instance and you have a long

805
00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:30,240
oral tradition often before things were

806
00:28:33,909 --> 00:28:31,760
ever written down and we all know how

807
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:33,919
the game of telephone goes and things

808
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:36,320
can change over time right so

809
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:37,919
then you've got a myth built up around

810
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:39,440
the person that might have already

811
00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:40,960
shifted a fair amount from what they

812
00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:42,640
actually said and did and then

813
00:28:45,909 --> 00:28:44,320
eventually you have a monument phase

814
00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:45,919
where you try to lock it down and say

815
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:47,520
this is what the person said these are

816
00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:49,279
the immutable laws therefore right

817
00:28:53,750 --> 00:28:51,120
around these religious figures and it

818
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:53,760
can't change now it's tame and it's safe

819
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:54,720
right

820
00:28:59,510 --> 00:28:56,399
um

821
00:29:01,350 --> 00:28:59,520
and so you have the ironic

822
00:29:03,269 --> 00:29:01,360
process where

823
00:29:05,190 --> 00:29:03,279
people who actually wanted to free

824
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:05,200
people to

825
00:29:09,029 --> 00:29:06,960
embark on an adventure for instance

826
00:29:10,549 --> 00:29:09,039
spiritually like i would say that jesus

827
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:10,559
actually meant to do

828
00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:12,159
instead what you have people doing is

829
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:14,080
locking down saying

830
00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:16,640
let's um ascribe all of these divine

831
00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:19,120
characteristics to this individual let's

832
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:20,880
make them as

833
00:29:25,990 --> 00:29:24,240
much dislike us as possible right

834
00:29:27,430 --> 00:29:26,000
they really are like did he does his

835
00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:27,440
feet even touch the ground technically

836
00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:28,880
or did he just float around like a grey

837
00:29:33,029 --> 00:29:30,000
alien right

838
00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:33,039
so there's that process right um

839
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:34,960
and and you could argue in the end you

840
00:29:38,149 --> 00:29:36,559
end up with something that's very very

841
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:38,159
different in religious tradition than

842
00:29:43,110 --> 00:29:41,200
what was originally meant and and what's

843
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:43,120
interesting about this

844
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:44,960
speaking of bias is that you can

845
00:29:48,549 --> 00:29:46,720
actually when you look at it with a

846
00:29:50,389 --> 00:29:48,559
certain perspective you can see this in

847
00:29:52,789 --> 00:29:50,399
the biblical text in the gospels for

848
00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:52,799
instance you can see

849
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:55,760
that this was his aim and yet another

850
00:29:59,669 --> 00:29:57,760
group of people say coming from more

851
00:30:02,549 --> 00:29:59,679
fundamentalist perspective can read

852
00:30:04,710 --> 00:30:02,559
those very same texts and not see it

853
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,720
that's my point about touching back to

854
00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:06,960
world views that you can read the same

855
00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:08,640
text two different people and come away

856
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:11,200
with different conclusions right and we

857
00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:12,960
should also remember that with this

858
00:30:17,590 --> 00:30:15,520
phenomenon where getting clear data is

859
00:30:18,950 --> 00:30:17,600
hard enough as it is but once we've

860
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:18,960
gotten the data you're still going to

861
00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:20,240
have people that draw different

862
00:30:26,149 --> 00:30:23,360
conclusions a la mcquest right

863
00:30:28,310 --> 00:30:26,159
based on the very same data

864
00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:28,320
and to your also to your point about

865
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:30,880
these these hero figures right

866
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:32,320
they can be again we're

867
00:30:36,230 --> 00:30:34,159
multi-dimensional beings and somebody

868
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:36,240
can be

869
00:30:40,149 --> 00:30:39,120
really sore in one area and actually

870
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:40,159
have some

871
00:30:43,909 --> 00:30:41,840
be lacking some self-awareness and be

872
00:30:45,990 --> 00:30:43,919
kind of underdeveloped in other areas

873
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:46,000
and part of my integral background was

874
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:47,600
recognizing that actually there's

875
00:30:50,549 --> 00:30:49,760
multiple intelligences to every human

876
00:30:53,590 --> 00:30:50,559
being

877
00:30:55,029 --> 00:30:53,600
and you can be a guru in one area have

878
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:55,039
broken through to some really deep

879
00:30:59,110 --> 00:30:57,200
levels of understanding the nuances of

880
00:31:00,549 --> 00:30:59,120
reality beyond the physical structure of

881
00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:00,559
the waking world

882
00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:02,799
and still need therapy you know what i

883
00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:04,960
mean i i i read an article recently

884
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:06,240
there was something like that the title

885
00:31:11,029 --> 00:31:08,320
was something like i think our guru

886
00:31:13,029 --> 00:31:11,039
needs therapy you can be both you can be

887
00:31:15,190 --> 00:31:13,039
someone who has deep insights

888
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:15,200
penetrating insights into the nature of

889
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:18,240
spiritual reality and still be lacking

890
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:21,039
self-awareness uh in other areas because

891
00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:22,159
again there's these multiple

892
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,880
intelligences and we again we flatten a

893
00:31:29,110 --> 00:31:26,640
complex structure when we try to assume

894
00:31:30,870 --> 00:31:29,120
people are just one dimensional that way

895
00:31:33,269 --> 00:31:30,880
which again like we said

896
00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:33,279
ultimately doesn't help any of them

897
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:35,600
the last point i would make too

898
00:31:40,630 --> 00:31:38,559
around this drama piece is that

899
00:31:43,190 --> 00:31:40,640
like you pointed out some people have

900
00:31:45,269 --> 00:31:43,200
favorite hypotheses going in

901
00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:45,279
for instance some people coming in with

902
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:46,880
more of a nuts and bolts perspective

903
00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:47,840
right

904
00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:50,159
that either these are et craft coming in

905
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:53,039
from zeta reticuli or it's nothing at

906
00:31:58,230 --> 00:31:55,600
all right or just black budget projects

907
00:31:59,750 --> 00:31:58,240
right u.s military and whatnot

908
00:32:02,549 --> 00:31:59,760
and when

909
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:02,559
data begins to present more and more

910
00:32:05,909 --> 00:32:04,640
what they would call woo right more and

911
00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:05,919
more

912
00:32:10,549 --> 00:32:08,080
high strangeness general paranormality

913
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:10,559
co-arising with these sightings

914
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:12,640
they will again sometimes without being

915
00:32:16,710 --> 00:32:15,360
self-aware say i'm switching sides i'm

916
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:16,720
just going to say this is all black

917
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:18,960
budget tech because i refuse to believe

918
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:21,200
that stuff is real so if you're going to

919
00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:23,440
make me consider that with these

920
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:25,600
sightings i would rather just

921
00:32:29,710 --> 00:32:26,960
say the whole thing

922
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:29,720
is hogwash or the whole thing is just

923
00:32:34,310 --> 00:32:32,640
misidentifications of military craft and

924
00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:34,320
that can happen without that person even

925
00:32:39,190 --> 00:32:37,279
being self-aware of that process and

926
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:39,200
they end up switching sides become

927
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:40,320
skeptics

928
00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:43,120
cynics because of this and this is why

929
00:32:47,190 --> 00:32:45,200
this this topic is so complex and we

930
00:32:48,310 --> 00:32:47,200
really again we hit on this over and

931
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:48,320
over again

932
00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:50,640
trying to develop self-awareness is so

933
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:55,990
yeah and something we've talked about

934
00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:58,799
often as well is this sort of uh the

935
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:01,200
energetic tendencies that people have

936
00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:02,640
and i would say

937
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:05,279
not only as individuals but as sort of

938
00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:06,880
as as groups

939
00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:08,799
um so

940
00:33:14,070 --> 00:33:10,960
you know the energy that people bring to

941
00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:14,080
a conversation to a topic or whatever

942
00:33:18,549 --> 00:33:16,000
over time they get to know them it

943
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:18,559
becomes kind of obvious what that energy

944
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:21,120
happens to be you know there it can be

945
00:33:27,269 --> 00:33:24,399
uh incredibly intense it can be

946
00:33:29,509 --> 00:33:27,279
you know quite flippant uh it can be

947
00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:29,519
everything in between nonchalant you

948
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:31,440
know so there's just a

949
00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:34,080
there's a spectrum of of

950
00:33:39,029 --> 00:33:36,799
i think uh behavior you know related to

951
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:39,039
this topic in particular

952
00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:40,080
and

953
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:41,600
you know what i the way i kind of look

954
00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:44,080
at that is that they're

955
00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:46,960
i've come to this place where it's less

956
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:50,240
you know sort of my responsibility to

957
00:33:54,310 --> 00:33:51,600
you know kind of

958
00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:54,320
bring someone you know like actively try

959
00:33:58,549 --> 00:33:56,320
to bring someone over to my particular

960
00:34:00,870 --> 00:33:58,559
vantage point um instead what i've

961
00:34:02,789 --> 00:34:00,880
decided to do is really just

962
00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:02,799
you know kind of be

963
00:34:06,149 --> 00:34:03,600
you know

964
00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:06,159
the best that i can be in how i'm

965
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:08,320
expressing my own energetic tendency

966
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:09,839
toward this issue

967
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:11,520
and there are going to be those that

968
00:34:16,149 --> 00:34:14,480
that are like-minded or feel kind of a

969
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:16,159
gravitational pull to that and then

970
00:34:20,069 --> 00:34:17,760
there are those that are not and and

971
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:20,079
that's okay you know so in other words

972
00:34:23,589 --> 00:34:21,679
that there we

973
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:23,599
we have to kind of make space in my

974
00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:26,800
opinion for the the broad spectrum

975
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:27,599
of

976
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:37,440
tend to do there's you know there there

977
00:34:41,190 --> 00:34:39,760
are some who uh who behave one way and

978
00:34:42,869 --> 00:34:41,200
other other ways and you know you get

979
00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:42,879
them all together for thanksgiving and

980
00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:44,320
sometimes it's not the most pleasant

981
00:34:47,909 --> 00:34:45,919
experience but you can still have a meal

982
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:47,919
together and they're still part of your

983
00:34:52,149 --> 00:34:49,679
family and you can still go to bat for

984
00:34:54,950 --> 00:34:52,159
them when times get tough i'm reminded

985
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:54,960
of so many instances in human history

986
00:34:59,190 --> 00:34:57,200
when things have happened that have been

987
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,200
you know really catastrophic for certain

988
00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:01,440
communities uh you know whether it be a

989
00:35:07,190 --> 00:35:04,880
a weather phenomena uh or a natural some

990
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:07,200
other natural disaster economic disaster

991
00:35:11,349 --> 00:35:09,200
and people rally together to try to you

992
00:35:13,829 --> 00:35:11,359
know help one another and that we always

993
00:35:15,910 --> 00:35:13,839
look at those as examples of kind of the

994
00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:15,920
best of humanity and and i think what we

995
00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:17,760
kind of forget there is it's not that

996
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:20,160
we're all in agreement on what life is

997
00:35:24,069 --> 00:35:22,560
or what's important or whatever um it's

998
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:24,079
that we're all actually trying to help

999
00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:25,760
one another but we're making what's

1000
00:35:30,390 --> 00:35:27,520
leaving room for each other to kind of

1001
00:35:32,550 --> 00:35:30,400
be who we are and and to me like that's

1002
00:35:34,069 --> 00:35:32,560
incredibly important i'm okay with that

1003
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:34,079
i'm comfortable with that in the

1004
00:35:38,710 --> 00:35:36,640
community of ufology uh that there are

1005
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:38,720
these different expressions that tend to

1006
00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:41,440
kind of work themselves out and you know

1007
00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:43,200
it's my choice particularly in social

1008
00:35:48,390 --> 00:35:46,320
media to either engage or disengage uh

1009
00:35:49,589 --> 00:35:48,400
in the way that i feel you know i'm i'm

1010
00:35:52,550 --> 00:35:49,599
called to do

1011
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:52,560
and uh that in some ways maybe you know

1012
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:54,560
i just don't you know i block or mute or

1013
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:55,920
whatever i try not to block too much

1014
00:35:59,349 --> 00:35:57,200
honestly

1015
00:36:01,430 --> 00:35:59,359
or i just you know surround myself with

1016
00:36:03,750 --> 00:36:01,440
folks that i think have a

1017
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:03,760
uh are approaching this topic from a

1018
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:06,079
similar kind of energy uh or at least

1019
00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:08,320
are willing to have a conversation that

1020
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:11,040
is you know fairly level-headed and and

1021
00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:13,440
uh and not prone to kind of like flying

1022
00:36:17,670 --> 00:36:15,680
off the handle uh but even then you know

1023
00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:17,680
i've got friends that in the community

1024
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:19,520
that have opinions that i don't share

1025
00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:22,000
and that that dude they do kind of let

1026
00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:23,440
off steam here and there and that that's

1027
00:36:28,069 --> 00:36:25,280
okay you know people are gonna do what

1028
00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:28,079
people do and uh we have to kind of i

1029
00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:29,680
think leave room for that behavior

1030
00:36:33,750 --> 00:36:31,839
because it's just the way we are

1031
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:33,760
yeah absolutely and i i think

1032
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:35,040
it's a really important point to say

1033
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:36,000
that

1034
00:36:39,109 --> 00:36:37,440
you know first and foremost we should

1035
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:39,119
remember that these are all human beings

1036
00:36:42,550 --> 00:36:40,640
we're dealing with

1037
00:36:44,230 --> 00:36:42,560
and you know i've heard uh even some

1038
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:44,240
people make this point

1039
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:45,920
when it comes to political profiling

1040
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:48,160
right someone will say well this person

1041
00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:50,000
uh tends to be associated with these

1042
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:52,560
things and they'll vote this way

1043
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:54,000
and especially in a country like ours

1044
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:56,640
which is very divided politically

1045
00:37:01,270 --> 00:36:58,560
um

1046
00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:01,280
but what people often don't remember to

1047
00:37:06,069 --> 00:37:03,280
say is that at the end of the day those

1048
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:06,079
are both human beings right and there's

1049
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:09,280
a story and an experience set behind why

1050
00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:11,040
they are the way they are and some of

1051
00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:12,640
that they have almost or very little

1052
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:14,640
control over where where they're born

1053
00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:17,520
which state they're born in you know uh

1054
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:19,760
what political persuasion they were they

1055
00:37:23,670 --> 00:37:21,520
were um

1056
00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:23,680
you know raised with for people like you

1057
00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:25,040
and i who have

1058
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:26,800
this religious history

1059
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:28,560
you know to what degree were you

1060
00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:30,240
subjected to the notions of a

1061
00:37:35,589 --> 00:37:33,280
fundamentalist religious system or not

1062
00:37:37,349 --> 00:37:35,599
all of these impact people and a lot of

1063
00:37:39,589 --> 00:37:37,359
this happens before people even have a

1064
00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:39,599
say on whether or not you know they they

1065
00:37:42,230 --> 00:37:41,200
want to be subjected to that kind of

1066
00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:42,240
thing

1067
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:43,040
so

1068
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:46,320
it brings to mind another point that you

1069
00:37:49,270 --> 00:37:47,920
and i have thought a lot about and that

1070
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:49,280
is that

1071
00:37:53,670 --> 00:37:51,760
in a post-church society and i know that

1072
00:37:55,270 --> 00:37:53,680
in america that's hard for some people

1073
00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:55,280
to imagine we're we're moving towards

1074
00:37:58,150 --> 00:37:57,040
that especially in light of recent

1075
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:58,160
developments

1076
00:38:01,990 --> 00:38:00,160
but globally there's definitely a move

1077
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:02,000
towards this post-church society you

1078
00:38:06,069 --> 00:38:03,760
definitely notice it in in western

1079
00:38:07,109 --> 00:38:06,079
europe uh particularly

1080
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:07,119
where

1081
00:38:11,349 --> 00:38:08,880
and rupert sheldrick's talked about this

1082
00:38:12,950 --> 00:38:11,359
you know we've lost something when we no

1083
00:38:14,950 --> 00:38:12,960
longer gather together with our

1084
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:14,960
neighbors right um i don't know about

1085
00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:16,560
well i know for you you've been asked to

1086
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:19,520
be a part of an hoa but but for me i

1087
00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:21,359
generally don't see my neighbors very

1088
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:23,440
much you know and i might pass them when

1089
00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:25,520
i'm walking on the trail and and wave

1090
00:38:29,190 --> 00:38:26,960
but other than that we don't get to know

1091
00:38:31,109 --> 00:38:29,200
each other very much um

1092
00:38:33,109 --> 00:38:31,119
and that's not the way things used to be

1093
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:33,119
you know things used to be

1094
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:34,400
you know set up in such a way that you

1095
00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:36,079
would get to know your neighbors even

1096
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:38,079
the ones you didn't particularly like or

1097
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:40,640
the ones that had annoying mannerisms

1098
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:42,880
but what you inevitably did by being

1099
00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:44,720
forced to interact with them was see

1100
00:38:49,349 --> 00:38:47,280
them as multi-dimensional people

1101
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:49,359
that have some good things and some not

1102
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:51,520
good things and sometimes these people

1103
00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:52,400
that

1104
00:38:55,510 --> 00:38:54,160
you might not align with are the ones

1105
00:38:57,670 --> 00:38:55,520
that would come to your aid when you

1106
00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:57,680
really need it right versus other people

1107
00:39:03,030 --> 00:39:00,480
you may be aligned with conceptually

1108
00:39:04,390 --> 00:39:03,040
left you out to dry right so again this

1109
00:39:06,390 --> 00:39:04,400
just

1110
00:39:07,349 --> 00:39:06,400
pinpoints again this this this point

1111
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:07,359
that we're

1112
00:39:11,589 --> 00:39:09,040
complex beings

1113
00:39:13,670 --> 00:39:11,599
and on social media you know one of the

1114
00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:13,680
the real challenges of the internet in

1115
00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:14,560
general

1116
00:39:18,710 --> 00:39:16,960
that even you know founders of major

1117
00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:18,720
corporations like twitter have pointed

1118
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:20,160
out

1119
00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:21,680
with some

1120
00:39:26,470 --> 00:39:24,400
regret is is how in some ways it's

1121
00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:26,480
enabled some of the worst of humanity

1122
00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:29,200
where we can say horrible things about

1123
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:31,040
other people in comment sections for

1124
00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:32,079
instance

1125
00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:34,320
and because we know we will never see

1126
00:39:38,390 --> 00:39:36,320
those people in person and never have to

1127
00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:38,400
be held to account for what we've said

1128
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:40,560
because we're often using a handle like

1129
00:39:44,069 --> 00:39:43,200
exo academian which you know is not your

1130
00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:44,079
name

1131
00:39:47,190 --> 00:39:46,000
uh and so

1132
00:39:49,750 --> 00:39:47,200
you don't you're not even held to

1133
00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:49,760
account or you can say the most horrific

1134
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:51,359
things just sort of

1135
00:39:56,710 --> 00:39:54,400
venting some deep uh you know darkness

1136
00:39:58,470 --> 00:39:56,720
you have and it in a moment makes you

1137
00:40:00,390 --> 00:39:58,480
feel good about this power of like you

1138
00:40:03,750 --> 00:40:00,400
just like launch something into the

1139
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:03,760
universe but you're not ever confronted

1140
00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:04,960
with

1141
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:07,200
the impact of that on another human

1142
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:08,640
being at least until you get your past

1143
00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:10,480
life or your lifetime review at the end

1144
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:11,520
of your life you're good all that's

1145
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:12,720
going to come back to you everything you

1146
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:14,240
said in the comment section is going to

1147
00:40:17,349 --> 00:40:15,599
come back to you i'll point it out to

1148
00:40:19,030 --> 00:40:17,359
people

1149
00:40:20,630 --> 00:40:19,040
but you know this is important to

1150
00:40:22,710 --> 00:40:20,640
remember is that

1151
00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:22,720
there is a human being on the other side

1152
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:24,000
of that and they've been through

1153
00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:26,079
difficult things and and life is

1154
00:40:30,069 --> 00:40:28,400
difficult for most people most people

1155
00:40:32,550 --> 00:40:30,079
have challenges that we're not even

1156
00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:32,560
aware of and when we reduce them to a

1157
00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:34,720
set of ideas they're putting forth about

1158
00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:37,680
the phenomenon we really do a disservice

1159
00:40:44,710 --> 00:40:40,800
uh to trying to act as as a community of

1160
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:44,720
human beings uh more than anything else

1161
00:40:47,430 --> 00:40:45,839
yeah

1162
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:47,440
well said

1163
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:49,920
well uh let's pivot away from the drama

1164
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:51,280
and i know we're gonna kind of touch on

1165
00:40:55,670 --> 00:40:53,200
community again a little bit in a little

1166
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:55,680
bit but uh let's pivot to

1167
00:40:59,990 --> 00:40:57,680
you know something that uh christopher

1168
00:41:02,230 --> 00:41:00,000
mellon said very recently

1169
00:41:04,309 --> 00:41:02,240
i think in barcelona

1170
00:41:05,829 --> 00:41:04,319
during an interview and i'll paraphrase

1171
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:05,839
it here but he sort of essentially said

1172
00:41:10,230 --> 00:41:07,200
that um

1173
00:41:11,349 --> 00:41:10,240
you know government disclosure is is not

1174
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:11,359
imminent

1175
00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:13,680
uh and i think that's kind of caught a

1176
00:41:18,630 --> 00:41:16,079
lot of folks uh a little bit off guard

1177
00:41:20,710 --> 00:41:18,640
you know coming from someone who's been

1178
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:20,720
such a staunch proponent of course a

1179
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:22,960
former government insider

1180
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:24,800
uh and there's been a lot of thought

1181
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:28,480
that you know we really were close to

1182
00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:30,480
uh some more significant

1183
00:41:34,470 --> 00:41:32,000
revelations

1184
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:34,480
and uh you know i think it calls into

1185
00:41:39,829 --> 00:41:37,280
question a lot of uh topics

1186
00:41:40,950 --> 00:41:39,839
that we can get into you know so

1187
00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:40,960
one i guess

1188
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:42,400
you know how do you feel about that

1189
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:46,000
quote but two uh if if the government's

1190
00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:49,440
not going to step forward and and you

1191
00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:50,400
know kind of

1192
00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:52,240
talk about disclosure at least in a

1193
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:54,240
meaningful way uh and if they're not

1194
00:41:58,390 --> 00:41:56,160
going to do it then then who is where do

1195
00:42:00,390 --> 00:41:58,400
we think that that may come from

1196
00:42:02,309 --> 00:42:00,400
what do you think about this yeah it's

1197
00:42:03,349 --> 00:42:02,319
it's interesting and i think i saw a lot

1198
00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:03,359
of people

1199
00:42:10,150 --> 00:42:08,160
surprised by by that comment uh because

1200
00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:10,160
when you compare that to this level of

1201
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:13,280
enthusiasm we've been hearing from

1202
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:15,119
some people that you know people would

1203
00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:16,880
consider insiders right people who have

1204
00:42:19,510 --> 00:42:18,400
at least been part of the government

1205
00:42:22,870 --> 00:42:19,520
structure

1206
00:42:25,270 --> 00:42:22,880
who have been surprisingly positive um

1207
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:25,280
and enthusiastic about how much is

1208
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:26,640
shifting

1209
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:28,240
so again i think we need a nuanced

1210
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:30,000
perspective here so on the one hand like

1211
00:42:32,710 --> 00:42:31,599
you pointed out at the beginning of the

1212
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:32,720
show

1213
00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:33,920
you know we've had congressional

1214
00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:35,680
hearings

1215
00:42:40,870 --> 00:42:38,240
we've had language now

1216
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:40,880
put forth to protect whistleblowers in

1217
00:42:45,829 --> 00:42:43,440
the future and all signs are pointing

1218
00:42:47,990 --> 00:42:45,839
towards fairly imminently

1219
00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:48,000
there will be people who have awareness

1220
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:50,800
of legacy ufo programs that will be

1221
00:42:54,309 --> 00:42:52,880
testifying before congress i'll also

1222
00:42:55,829 --> 00:42:54,319
point out to people

1223
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:55,839
that those are going to be closed

1224
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:57,359
hearings because it's going to involve

1225
00:43:01,349 --> 00:42:59,359
classified information so we will not be

1226
00:43:03,109 --> 00:43:01,359
seeing that publicly but it will be

1227
00:43:05,829 --> 00:43:03,119
happening behind closed doors and

1228
00:43:07,109 --> 00:43:05,839
opening the eyes and ears of congress

1229
00:43:09,510 --> 00:43:07,119
people

1230
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:09,520
to how much has been going on we've also

1231
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:10,800
had you know

1232
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:14,640
items like the the wilson davis notes uh

1233
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:16,319
added to the congressional record these

1234
00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:19,599
are all massive massive moves

1235
00:43:22,950 --> 00:43:20,400
the

1236
00:43:25,589 --> 00:43:22,960
videos that were released around 2017

1237
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:25,599
and the new york times articles again

1238
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:27,920
that's a massive shift from what used to

1239
00:43:30,630 --> 00:43:29,760
be the case in project blue book kind of

1240
00:43:31,670 --> 00:43:30,640
days

1241
00:43:33,589 --> 00:43:31,680
so

1242
00:43:35,829 --> 00:43:33,599
let's first step back and remember the

1243
00:43:38,390 --> 00:43:35,839
last five years have been a whirlwind

1244
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:38,400
but a lot has happened that you know for

1245
00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:40,880
people who've been in this for decades

1246
00:43:44,150 --> 00:43:42,640
there's no doubt there's been this sea

1247
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:44,160
change

1248
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:46,480
but i think partly what

1249
00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:49,200
chris is trying to remember or remind us

1250
00:43:53,829 --> 00:43:50,800
to do is to keep

1251
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:53,839
feet to the fire that don't back off

1252
00:43:59,109 --> 00:43:56,720
it's because there's been pressure um

1253
00:44:02,710 --> 00:43:59,119
brought to bear against some of these

1254
00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:02,720
deeply uh embedded secret structures

1255
00:44:06,069 --> 00:44:04,480
that things are beginning to crack now

1256
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:06,079
it's not the time to back off of that we

1257
00:44:10,069 --> 00:44:08,480
need to keep doing that

1258
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:10,079
and

1259
00:44:14,069 --> 00:44:12,319
i would also add that some of the the

1260
00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:14,079
people who have been in those former

1261
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:17,200
government positions or still aligned

1262
00:44:20,829 --> 00:44:18,560
with the government in various ways

1263
00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:20,839
maybe as contractors and whatnot

1264
00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:22,400
um

1265
00:44:27,829 --> 00:44:25,359
again government is a complex assortment

1266
00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:27,839
of a lot of different organizations

1267
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:30,079
one hand often not talking to the to the

1268
00:44:35,109 --> 00:44:32,880
75 other hands right

1269
00:44:38,150 --> 00:44:35,119
and we still have an issue with siloed

1270
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:38,160
information we still have an issue where

1271
00:44:41,589 --> 00:44:40,240
these various agencies

1272
00:44:43,510 --> 00:44:41,599
have

1273
00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:43,520
classification systems

1274
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:45,680
that prevent one group from talking to

1275
00:44:50,150 --> 00:44:47,520
another group or even being aware that

1276
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:50,160
that one group exists within one

1277
00:44:54,390 --> 00:44:52,000
classification structure

1278
00:44:56,230 --> 00:44:54,400
so um

1279
00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:56,240
that is still going to be going to be a

1280
00:44:59,750 --> 00:44:58,079
tough nut to crack we almost need

1281
00:45:01,829 --> 00:44:59,760
systemic change

1282
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:01,839
for for that to happen that even some of

1283
00:45:06,309 --> 00:45:04,000
these insiders

1284
00:45:08,550 --> 00:45:06,319
are finding it difficult to still get

1285
00:45:11,109 --> 00:45:08,560
access to data i know that's the case

1286
00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:11,119
that still getting access to data is a

1287
00:45:15,349 --> 00:45:13,440
problem even in this day and age you're

1288
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:15,359
still seeing the air force for instance

1289
00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:17,200
being pretty dismissive

1290
00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:19,280
and doing everything it can to sort of

1291
00:45:24,309 --> 00:45:22,079
evade even talking about this topic

1292
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:24,319
that they probably more than anyone else

1293
00:45:29,270 --> 00:45:26,800
uh have mountains of data that if we

1294
00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:29,280
could analyze it which again speaks to

1295
00:45:32,950 --> 00:45:31,280
the ai thing which we can we can touch

1296
00:45:35,430 --> 00:45:32,960
base on

1297
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:35,440
then we could really identify patterns

1298
00:45:42,470 --> 00:45:37,680
that would be very meaningful

1299
00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:44,309
that these

1300
00:45:48,069 --> 00:45:46,240
secret structures

1301
00:45:49,829 --> 00:45:48,079
aren't the ones that are saying

1302
00:45:51,190 --> 00:45:49,839
come let's come forward it's time you

1303
00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:51,200
know i mean there are some people no

1304
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:52,480
doubt in there

1305
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:55,040
but uh most of the cracking that's

1306
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:56,480
happening in the system is because of

1307
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:57,839
pressure is being brought to bear from

1308
00:46:02,309 --> 00:45:59,599
outside the system so that's partly what

1309
00:46:04,230 --> 00:46:02,319
he's saying is we need to keep that up

1310
00:46:06,390 --> 00:46:04,240
i would also finally add before i pass

1311
00:46:08,230 --> 00:46:06,400
it back to you because this is a complex

1312
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:08,240
topic um

1313
00:46:10,950 --> 00:46:09,520
you know

1314
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:10,960
there was a point where our our

1315
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:13,359
classification systems and our tendency

1316
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:16,960
towards always classifying information

1317
00:46:20,230 --> 00:46:18,640
made some sense in the midst of a cold

1318
00:46:22,710 --> 00:46:20,240
war for instance

1319
00:46:24,630 --> 00:46:22,720
where there was even

1320
00:46:26,470 --> 00:46:24,640
a strong evidence that there were soviet

1321
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:26,480
agents that infiltrated the cia for

1322
00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:27,760
instance right

1323
00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:29,520
in the midst of the cold war you can

1324
00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:30,960
understand why it was considered the

1325
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:32,720
time important to

1326
00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:34,880
uh have a need to know you know and put

1327
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:36,720
that into effect to the nth degree where

1328
00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:39,040
even within one agency someone who works

1329
00:46:42,390 --> 00:46:41,040
for the agency might not even know that

1330
00:46:44,069 --> 00:46:42,400
a certain group exists

1331
00:46:47,030 --> 00:46:44,079
you know or you might

1332
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:47,040
have people that are running or involved

1333
00:46:50,870 --> 00:46:49,040
in two operations at the same time so

1334
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:50,880
every time they're at a certain location

1335
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:52,319
you can say oh yeah they were just

1336
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:54,480
involved in project a while

1337
00:46:58,630 --> 00:46:56,800
simultaneously project b was also going

1338
00:47:00,069 --> 00:46:58,640
on so even when you try to uncover in

1339
00:47:01,750 --> 00:47:00,079
the historical record and i know some of

1340
00:47:02,950 --> 00:47:01,760
this has happened

1341
00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:02,960
you will have people who are involved

1342
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:05,839
with a and b but because they always

1343
00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:07,440
could explain it away as say oh yeah i

1344
00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:08,640
was in albuquerque because i was

1345
00:47:11,910 --> 00:47:10,160
involved in project a and you could look

1346
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:11,920
up the documentation and you would find

1347
00:47:16,150 --> 00:47:13,920
it in the historical record which makes

1348
00:47:17,829 --> 00:47:16,160
it look like nothing was going on but

1349
00:47:19,829 --> 00:47:17,839
the truth is it was also project b

1350
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:19,839
happening simultaneously so that just

1351
00:47:23,990 --> 00:47:21,920
gives you an idea of the degree to which

1352
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:24,000
these government structures have gone to

1353
00:47:27,589 --> 00:47:25,200
hiding

1354
00:47:29,270 --> 00:47:27,599
even the the evidence of certain

1355
00:47:31,910 --> 00:47:29,280
uh

1356
00:47:34,230 --> 00:47:31,920
task force and whatnot even being in

1357
00:47:37,510 --> 00:47:34,240
existence even from people in their own

1358
00:47:38,870 --> 00:47:37,520
agency that had a point at at some point

1359
00:47:40,150 --> 00:47:38,880
you know during the cold war that made

1360
00:47:41,270 --> 00:47:40,160
some sense

1361
00:47:43,270 --> 00:47:41,280
but

1362
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:43,280
what happens is eventually these initial

1363
00:47:51,309 --> 00:47:44,640
ideas

1364
00:47:54,150 --> 00:47:51,319
become again they become uh

1365
00:47:56,309 --> 00:47:54,160
monumentized within the system right so

1366
00:47:59,190 --> 00:47:56,319
it becomes the default

1367
00:48:01,349 --> 00:47:59,200
to always classify right to always

1368
00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:01,359
classify and to reduce it to the fewest

1369
00:48:04,950 --> 00:48:02,640
number of people

1370
00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:04,960
who have a need to know as possible

1371
00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:06,800
and then what you end up with is a

1372
00:48:10,390 --> 00:48:08,800
history where we have mountains of data

1373
00:48:12,069 --> 00:48:10,400
that would tell us so much about the

1374
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:12,079
phenomenon and

1375
00:48:15,829 --> 00:48:14,400
i think towards my working hypothesis

1376
00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:15,839
that there's numerous groups with

1377
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:18,240
different origin sources we could have

1378
00:48:22,710 --> 00:48:20,720
invaluable data that would demonstrate

1379
00:48:26,390 --> 00:48:22,720
those different patterns but it's all

1380
00:48:29,430 --> 00:48:26,400
solid away so so this is why we've got

1381
00:48:32,630 --> 00:48:29,440
such a difficult process ahead of us

1382
00:48:34,390 --> 00:48:32,640
really need a systemic change

1383
00:48:35,750 --> 00:48:34,400
a sea change within the entire

1384
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:35,760
organizational structure of the

1385
00:48:40,390 --> 00:48:38,160
government for this to happen even for

1386
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:40,400
people who have clearances

1387
00:48:45,109 --> 00:48:42,800
and are working diligently towards this

1388
00:48:47,270 --> 00:48:45,119
it's still a massive obstacle they're

1389
00:48:49,829 --> 00:48:47,280
running up against is the soloing of

1390
00:48:50,950 --> 00:48:49,839
information and the hyper classification

1391
00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:50,960
which

1392
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:53,280
is handcuffing our society more than

1393
00:49:00,069 --> 00:48:58,790
yeah and if i could kind of summarize

1394
00:49:01,750 --> 00:49:00,079
some of that too

1395
00:49:03,430 --> 00:49:01,760
with an analogy i think of it like an

1396
00:49:05,670 --> 00:49:03,440
organism so just like the human body

1397
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:05,680
right so think of the government as

1398
00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:07,760
you know a human body

1399
00:49:10,470 --> 00:49:09,440
and

1400
00:49:12,309 --> 00:49:10,480
you know there's there are things

1401
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:12,319
happening inside the body all the time

1402
00:49:16,630 --> 00:49:14,720
that our executive function our our

1403
00:49:18,710 --> 00:49:16,640
conscious awareness you know it's just

1404
00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:18,720
not even we're not even cognizant of

1405
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:20,880
those things um particularly when we're

1406
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:22,480
talking about things that might be like

1407
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:24,880
a disease or a parasite or a cancer or

1408
00:49:27,829 --> 00:49:26,240
whatever there could be something

1409
00:49:29,750 --> 00:49:27,839
happening inside the body that we just

1410
00:49:32,790 --> 00:49:29,760
have no you know executive level

1411
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:32,800
awareness of and oftentimes

1412
00:49:36,710 --> 00:49:34,319
you know that

1413
00:49:38,309 --> 00:49:36,720
to an external observer

1414
00:49:40,150 --> 00:49:38,319
you can be looking at that individual

1415
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:40,160
and you can see signs of

1416
00:49:43,589 --> 00:49:42,319
of this issue they might be subtle but

1417
00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:43,599
if you're trained you might be able to

1418
00:49:46,309 --> 00:49:44,880
catch them that's what you know so

1419
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:46,319
hopefully what physicians are good at

1420
00:49:50,549 --> 00:49:48,480
doing you know that they can look at an

1421
00:49:52,069 --> 00:49:50,559
individual they can look at uh you know

1422
00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:52,079
kind of blood panels and all these kinds

1423
00:49:56,230 --> 00:49:54,160
of things and say hey you know this is

1424
00:49:58,150 --> 00:49:56,240
an indication to me that this there's

1425
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:58,160
something else happening here that that

1426
00:50:02,069 --> 00:49:59,839
you the individual

1427
00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:02,079
are are not aware of and that's you know

1428
00:50:06,069 --> 00:50:03,920
that's a lot how i think about the

1429
00:50:08,390 --> 00:50:06,079
government you know capital g government

1430
00:50:11,270 --> 00:50:08,400
here and this point from chris mellon

1431
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:11,280
when it comes to disclosure you know

1432
00:50:15,109 --> 00:50:12,720
an official statement from the

1433
00:50:18,069 --> 00:50:15,119
government is is akin to the individual

1434
00:50:20,549 --> 00:50:18,079
in this example acknowledging that they

1435
00:50:22,950 --> 00:50:20,559
have a disease you know that they have

1436
00:50:25,349 --> 00:50:22,960
some sort of uh issue that they weren't

1437
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:25,359
aware of and so the the physician you

1438
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:26,880
know who is trained who can see that

1439
00:50:29,910 --> 00:50:28,480
thing who can conduct the biopsy or

1440
00:50:32,069 --> 00:50:29,920
whatever it is they're the ones that are

1441
00:50:35,109 --> 00:50:32,079
able to you know kind of bring the

1442
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:35,119
individual awareness to to focus on that

1443
00:50:38,470 --> 00:50:36,800
and then you can start creating a care

1444
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:38,480
plan and you can acknowledge that it's

1445
00:50:43,109 --> 00:50:41,040
real and you can move forward so that's

1446
00:50:45,589 --> 00:50:43,119
really what i see happening here

1447
00:50:47,430 --> 00:50:45,599
you know kind of just generally uh is

1448
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:47,440
that it's going to take time it takes

1449
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:48,720
time to kind of

1450
00:50:53,990 --> 00:50:51,599
uh you know diagnose the issue to find

1451
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:54,000
out where the problem happens to be to

1452
00:50:58,390 --> 00:50:55,599
draw attention to that from the

1453
00:51:00,549 --> 00:50:58,400
executive level to understand what that

1454
00:51:02,470 --> 00:51:00,559
is and then to and then to kind of

1455
00:51:04,069 --> 00:51:02,480
formulate all of that into a

1456
00:51:07,430 --> 00:51:04,079
comprehensive understanding that can be

1457
00:51:09,829 --> 00:51:07,440
articulated i have x y z

1458
00:51:12,150 --> 00:51:09,839
and i am doing x you know

1459
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:12,160
to to try to solve this so i think at

1460
00:51:16,069 --> 00:51:14,000
least for me that's a helpful analogy to

1461
00:51:18,230 --> 00:51:16,079
think about what might be going on here

1462
00:51:19,109 --> 00:51:18,240
and and i think too it's a good reminder

1463
00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:19,119
that

1464
00:51:26,950 --> 00:51:24,880
going to be and i've said this many many

1465
00:51:28,390 --> 00:51:26,960
times i know we have on the show as well

1466
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:28,400
you know this is not going to be

1467
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:30,480
something where it's just like a a light

1468
00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:31,760
switch you know where we just kind of

1469
00:51:36,790 --> 00:51:34,240
flip this and all of a sudden you know

1470
00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:36,800
boom we have all the answers and you

1471
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:38,960
know all of our questions are resolved

1472
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:40,960
you know it's just that is not the way

1473
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:43,440
it will occur it's going to happen

1474
00:51:48,309 --> 00:51:46,480
in incremental ways over time and it's

1475
00:51:53,589 --> 00:51:48,319
going to be

1476
00:51:55,510 --> 00:51:53,599
it will be a a collective process you

1477
00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:55,520
know that there is a part in other words

1478
00:52:00,710 --> 00:51:58,319
that the government plays in disclosure

1479
00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:00,720
there's also a part that society plays

1480
00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:02,800
in disclosure obviously government is

1481
00:52:07,990 --> 00:52:05,760
given power from you know its people and

1482
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:08,000
so there is this kind of dialectic

1483
00:52:13,030 --> 00:52:10,559
conversation happening uh with these

1484
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:13,040
individuals and the organizations

1485
00:52:17,990 --> 00:52:15,599
to to kind of move us into into what

1486
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:18,000
official disclosure looks like and by

1487
00:52:22,630 --> 00:52:20,319
the way that process is actually never

1488
00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:22,640
really done you know there will always

1489
00:52:27,670 --> 00:52:25,440
be mysteries that that have yet to be

1490
00:52:29,190 --> 00:52:27,680
disclosed uh and i think that that's

1491
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:29,200
something people need to get comfortable

1492
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:31,119
with there's not going to be

1493
00:52:36,870 --> 00:52:34,160
this sort of grand revelatory moment

1494
00:52:39,510 --> 00:52:36,880
when all questions in the universe have

1495
00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:39,520
been addressed you know we need to be i

1496
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:41,440
think thinking about that and preparing

1497
00:52:44,150 --> 00:52:42,720
ourselves for that because a lot of

1498
00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:44,160
folks in my opinion at least seem to

1499
00:52:47,270 --> 00:52:45,040
have

1500
00:52:48,950 --> 00:52:47,280
uh really kind of

1501
00:52:51,109 --> 00:52:48,960
uh

1502
00:52:53,030 --> 00:52:51,119
crazy expectations about what what is

1503
00:52:54,230 --> 00:52:53,040
going to happen here uh that it's gonna

1504
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:54,240
like all of our problems are gonna be

1505
00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:55,760
solved and everything's gonna be great

1506
00:52:59,910 --> 00:52:58,640
when when we get that disclosure but i

1507
00:53:01,270 --> 00:52:59,920
know we were talking about this topic

1508
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:01,280
too and you

1509
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:03,280
you know you wanted to touch on some of

1510
00:53:07,670 --> 00:53:05,760
the things that might be different about

1511
00:53:09,349 --> 00:53:07,680
uh kind of where we are today versus

1512
00:53:10,870 --> 00:53:09,359
where we've been in history because you

1513
00:53:13,589 --> 00:53:10,880
know with ufology at least in the last

1514
00:53:15,030 --> 00:53:13,599
you know seven plus decades

1515
00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:15,040
we've been through cycles like this

1516
00:53:18,549 --> 00:53:16,720
before where we've kind of been on the

1517
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,559
precipice of uh you know greater

1518
00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:20,559
revelation and and the door has been

1519
00:53:24,309 --> 00:53:22,319
been shut again but you know is there

1520
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:24,319
something different about today that

1521
00:53:28,549 --> 00:53:26,400
really gives you a lot more hope than

1522
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,559
kind of where we've been yeah absolutely

1523
00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:30,400
and i'm glad we're going to address this

1524
00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:31,839
because because i think this is flying

1525
00:53:35,510 --> 00:53:34,000
under the radar for a lot of people

1526
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:35,520
um

1527
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:37,440
now on the one hand

1528
00:53:39,990 --> 00:53:39,200
i can see how people

1529
00:53:41,990 --> 00:53:40,000
are

1530
00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:42,000
cynical you know and frustrated and they

1531
00:53:46,150 --> 00:53:45,200
say look it's been 75 years already

1532
00:53:47,589 --> 00:53:46,160
and

1533
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:47,599
you just admitted

1534
00:53:51,430 --> 00:53:49,920
darren that um you know the secret

1535
00:53:53,670 --> 00:53:51,440
keepers still don't want to release the

1536
00:53:55,190 --> 00:53:53,680
secrets so how do we know it's not just

1537
00:53:56,549 --> 00:53:55,200
going to be more of the same ultimately

1538
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:56,559
that these these

1539
00:54:00,150 --> 00:53:58,800
these hopes end up being false hopes

1540
00:54:01,589 --> 00:54:00,160
and i would say there's there's numerous

1541
00:54:04,230 --> 00:54:01,599
things that are different

1542
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:04,240
one really distinct difference is

1543
00:54:09,349 --> 00:54:06,400
has to do with the tools

1544
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:09,359
the this the deep state can bring to

1545
00:54:13,349 --> 00:54:10,400
bear

1546
00:54:16,309 --> 00:54:13,359
to keep this secret right so

1547
00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:16,319
uh in the 1950s or 60s you know

1548
00:54:18,870 --> 00:54:17,680
pre-internet

1549
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:18,880
um

1550
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:21,200
long before the internet there was you

1551
00:54:27,910 --> 00:54:25,589
efforts to for instance control

1552
00:54:29,109 --> 00:54:27,920
journalists and control news media right

1553
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:29,119
and so

1554
00:54:33,910 --> 00:54:32,240
you would sometimes have um

1555
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:33,920
articles that were simultaneously

1556
00:54:37,589 --> 00:54:35,680
released around the world published

1557
00:54:40,230 --> 00:54:37,599
around the world that contained almost

1558
00:54:42,309 --> 00:54:40,240
the exact same kind of um

1559
00:54:45,270 --> 00:54:42,319
structure of language right

1560
00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:45,280
now back in those days somebody in milan

1561
00:54:48,790 --> 00:54:47,280
italy is not going to be reading the new

1562
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:48,800
york times likely

1563
00:54:52,069 --> 00:54:50,240
they're not going to be reading you know

1564
00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:52,079
the los angeles times they're not going

1565
00:54:56,309 --> 00:54:54,400
to be reading the the boise post or

1566
00:55:00,069 --> 00:54:56,319
whatever our newspaper they have in

1567
00:55:03,270 --> 00:55:00,079
boise uh you know or the toronto star or

1568
00:55:05,589 --> 00:55:03,280
whatever i mean the point being that

1569
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:05,599
it was much easier to control the

1570
00:55:09,190 --> 00:55:07,520
dissemination of information in those

1571
00:55:13,190 --> 00:55:09,200
days because you could

1572
00:55:15,670 --> 00:55:13,200
have this worldwide effort to funnel

1573
00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:15,680
disinformation through journalists

1574
00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:17,680
and no one would pick up on the fact

1575
00:55:21,030 --> 00:55:19,359
that this coordinated effort was

1576
00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:21,040
happening globally

1577
00:55:25,589 --> 00:55:23,040
to for instance suppress interest in

1578
00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:25,599
ufos and suppress the belief that

1579
00:55:28,549 --> 00:55:27,760
they're real right

1580
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:28,559
but

1581
00:55:32,390 --> 00:55:30,720
number one not only can can that not

1582
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:32,400
happen now because you and i can get on

1583
00:55:35,270 --> 00:55:33,680
the internet and pull up all those

1584
00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:35,280
newspapers right

1585
00:55:39,349 --> 00:55:36,480
but

1586
00:55:42,230 --> 00:55:39,359
we also now have uh

1587
00:55:43,589 --> 00:55:42,240
really powerful software that can

1588
00:55:45,990 --> 00:55:43,599
scan

1589
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:46,000
thousands and thousands of newspapers

1590
00:55:49,829 --> 00:55:48,319
around the world and and recognize when

1591
00:55:52,230 --> 00:55:49,839
that happens when there's a coordinated

1592
00:55:54,870 --> 00:55:52,240
disinformation campaign it'll recognize

1593
00:55:57,750 --> 00:55:54,880
and it'll be plain as day right

1594
00:56:00,390 --> 00:55:57,760
but very very importantly that also now

1595
00:56:02,230 --> 00:56:00,400
applies to the historical record so all

1596
00:56:04,710 --> 00:56:02,240
those efforts that were made in the 20th

1597
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:04,720
century to suppress information and to

1598
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:07,040
deflect from important data that was

1599
00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:09,200
already leaked out into the public can

1600
00:56:13,990 --> 00:56:12,240
now be found scanned

1601
00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:14,000
collated and

1602
00:56:19,109 --> 00:56:16,960
can generate really valuable intel and

1603
00:56:20,870 --> 00:56:19,119
that is happening as we speak there are

1604
00:56:23,589 --> 00:56:20,880
people who are employing

1605
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:23,599
really sophisticated ai to scan

1606
00:56:27,670 --> 00:56:25,680
everything under the sun including

1607
00:56:30,150 --> 00:56:27,680
documents that have been locked up in

1608
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:30,160
private libraries and places like that

1609
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:32,400
for decades right and this is where by

1610
00:56:36,710 --> 00:56:35,040
the way um you know legacy ufologists

1611
00:56:38,309 --> 00:56:36,720
who've been at this for years

1612
00:56:39,750 --> 00:56:38,319
holding on to your private collection of

1613
00:56:42,230 --> 00:56:39,760
data is not helpful at this point

1614
00:56:43,990 --> 00:56:42,240
everybody needs to be on the same team

1615
00:56:46,870 --> 00:56:44,000
put that information forward so we can

1616
00:56:49,190 --> 00:56:46,880
run this data analysis and notice these

1617
00:56:51,510 --> 00:56:49,200
trends not just about what governments

1618
00:56:52,789 --> 00:56:51,520
have done to suppress information but we

1619
00:56:55,270 --> 00:56:52,799
can also

1620
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:55,280
corroborate different

1621
00:56:59,109 --> 00:56:57,119
parts of the narrative too and say well

1622
00:57:01,190 --> 00:56:59,119
we know this person was involved because

1623
00:57:02,789 --> 00:57:01,200
over here we have their military record

1624
00:57:05,870 --> 00:57:02,799
uh you know i know some people who are

1625
00:57:08,390 --> 00:57:05,880
even employing uh you know getting on to

1626
00:57:09,829 --> 00:57:08,400
ancestry.com and and actually finding

1627
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:09,839
out sure enough this person was related

1628
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:12,799
to this person you know and

1629
00:57:17,109 --> 00:57:14,160
what i'm trying to point out is that

1630
00:57:19,510 --> 00:57:17,119
it's amazing startling

1631
00:57:22,630 --> 00:57:19,520
game changing how much we can actually

1632
00:57:24,069 --> 00:57:22,640
reconstruct the true narrative of the

1633
00:57:25,670 --> 00:57:24,079
20th century

1634
00:57:27,589 --> 00:57:25,680
in opposition to what we were actually

1635
00:57:29,990 --> 00:57:27,599
told about the history of the 20th

1636
00:57:31,030 --> 00:57:30,000
century and this is happening as we

1637
00:57:33,349 --> 00:57:31,040
speak

1638
00:57:35,430 --> 00:57:33,359
and there's very little the secret

1639
00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:35,440
keepers can do to stop it because that

1640
00:57:41,430 --> 00:57:37,920
information is already out there it just

1641
00:57:43,990 --> 00:57:41,440
to use a jeremy corbell uh uh phrase it

1642
00:57:45,510 --> 00:57:44,000
wasn't weaponized before right it wasn't

1643
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:45,520
it was there but it wasn't useful

1644
00:57:48,549 --> 00:57:47,440
because it was just sitting there so

1645
00:57:50,710 --> 00:57:48,559
while it's true that we still have

1646
00:57:53,349 --> 00:57:50,720
problems with soloing of information

1647
00:57:55,510 --> 00:57:53,359
within the government structure

1648
00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:55,520
nevertheless in the public record around

1649
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:57,440
the world there's so much information we

1650
00:58:01,670 --> 00:57:59,280
do have access to and at this point it's

1651
00:58:03,670 --> 00:58:01,680
just a matter of running that analysis

1652
00:58:05,670 --> 00:58:03,680
and finding those patterns

1653
00:58:08,870 --> 00:58:05,680
and beginning to expose the entire thing

1654
00:58:10,549 --> 00:58:08,880
and i will just warn people

1655
00:58:12,630 --> 00:58:10,559
some people will be daunted by this

1656
00:58:15,270 --> 00:58:12,640
other people will feel enthused about it

1657
00:58:17,829 --> 00:58:15,280
that it will ultimately reconstruct a

1658
00:58:20,870 --> 00:58:17,839
very very different narrative about the

1659
00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:20,880
entire 20th century than than we've been

1660
00:58:25,750 --> 00:58:22,640
told up until now so just prepare

1661
00:58:27,270 --> 00:58:25,760
yourself because that is coming

1662
00:58:29,990 --> 00:58:27,280
yeah i'm glad you pointed that out and

1663
00:58:31,750 --> 00:58:30,000
it feels as if we are at a time where

1664
00:58:34,630 --> 00:58:31,760
at least more folks are

1665
00:58:37,190 --> 00:58:34,640
i think opening up to that possibility

1666
00:58:39,510 --> 00:58:37,200
that um

1667
00:58:42,069 --> 00:58:39,520
you know there seems to be

1668
00:58:43,109 --> 00:58:42,079
at least enough incidents in in us

1669
00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:43,119
history

1670
00:58:48,230 --> 00:58:46,000
uh that we can look to where we can just

1671
00:58:49,589 --> 00:58:48,240
very clearly see there was a coordinated

1672
00:58:51,510 --> 00:58:49,599
effort to

1673
00:58:53,109 --> 00:58:51,520
uh you know kind of convince the public

1674
00:58:56,309 --> 00:58:53,119
in the world that

1675
00:58:58,309 --> 00:58:56,319
events transpired like this and and not

1676
00:59:00,789 --> 00:58:58,319
like that i mean this is something that

1677
00:59:02,470 --> 00:59:00,799
isn't new we've talked about this uh

1678
00:59:05,109 --> 00:59:02,480
many times and i think most people

1679
00:59:07,670 --> 00:59:05,119
who've done any uh degree of study on on

1680
00:59:09,829 --> 00:59:07,680
any topic understand that you know those

1681
00:59:11,589 --> 00:59:09,839
that have the power of the pen are those

1682
00:59:12,950 --> 00:59:11,599
that possess the power of

1683
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:12,960
of the truth

1684
00:59:14,710 --> 00:59:13,920
um

1685
00:59:20,230 --> 00:59:14,720
and

1686
00:59:22,870 --> 00:59:20,240
this isn't a new concept but it is

1687
00:59:24,470 --> 00:59:22,880
amazing what we can do now with this

1688
00:59:26,870 --> 00:59:24,480
technology to

1689
00:59:28,950 --> 00:59:26,880
i think unravel some of the official

1690
00:59:31,349 --> 00:59:28,960
narratives and and present more

1691
00:59:33,910 --> 00:59:31,359
information and different perspectives

1692
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:33,920
on what actually took place and and that

1693
00:59:37,829 --> 00:59:35,599
and as you point out like it can be

1694
00:59:39,109 --> 00:59:37,839
incredibly destabilizing and this is

1695
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:39,119
something that i

1696
00:59:42,870 --> 00:59:40,960
uh have always

1697
00:59:44,950 --> 00:59:42,880
you know kind of wondered about

1698
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:44,960
in particular with the the topic of

1699
00:59:49,750 --> 00:59:48,240
disclosure is in in the world in which

1700
00:59:52,230 --> 00:59:49,760
we live now

1701
00:59:55,430 --> 00:59:52,240
where we are wrestling with

1702
00:59:57,510 --> 00:59:55,440
uh kind of a consensus uh narrative of

1703
00:59:59,589 --> 00:59:57,520
what's going on you know we have

1704
01:00:02,069 --> 00:59:59,599
everyone kind of with their own

1705
01:00:03,109 --> 01:00:02,079
sort of bubble of of truth

1706
01:00:06,470 --> 01:00:03,119
you know

1707
01:00:08,870 --> 01:00:06,480
how is it going to be how will

1708
01:00:10,950 --> 01:00:08,880
this uh sort of reality

1709
01:00:13,910 --> 01:00:10,960
uh kind of seep into

1710
01:00:15,589 --> 01:00:13,920
our our our understanding to where you

1711
01:00:18,950 --> 01:00:15,599
know and how long will it take you know

1712
01:00:20,710 --> 01:00:18,960
so it's not going to be as simple

1713
01:00:22,069 --> 01:00:20,720
as in the past where

1714
01:00:23,589 --> 01:00:22,079
you know there's just some sort of great

1715
01:00:25,510 --> 01:00:23,599
headline from

1716
01:00:27,750 --> 01:00:25,520
you know insert your

1717
01:00:29,750 --> 01:00:27,760
you know your news station of choice or

1718
01:00:31,589 --> 01:00:29,760
paper of choice and and the world's just

1719
01:00:33,349 --> 01:00:31,599
saying yep that's what happened you know

1720
01:00:34,309 --> 01:00:33,359
we don't live in that kind of world any

1721
01:00:36,309 --> 01:00:34,319
longer

1722
01:00:38,710 --> 01:00:36,319
so even if we get some of the

1723
01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:38,720
information that we are hoping for and

1724
01:00:44,390 --> 01:00:41,520
if that's disseminated by you know again

1725
01:00:46,710 --> 01:00:44,400
insert your sort of

1726
01:00:49,349 --> 01:00:46,720
venue of choice you know we have to

1727
01:00:51,349 --> 01:00:49,359
remember there's still going to be

1728
01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:51,359
some contention

1729
01:00:55,750 --> 01:00:54,160
as to what is actually happening

1730
01:00:58,630 --> 01:00:55,760
there's always going to be some

1731
01:01:00,470 --> 01:00:58,640
narrative control um and so you know we

1732
01:01:02,150 --> 01:01:00,480
are we are living in a world now where

1733
01:01:04,710 --> 01:01:02,160
we're struggling with this i don't see

1734
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:04,720
that changing uh what i do hope is that

1735
01:01:09,109 --> 01:01:07,760
you know perhaps with with tools like ai

1736
01:01:12,069 --> 01:01:09,119
uh we will

1737
01:01:13,589 --> 01:01:12,079
kind of maybe get to a consensus picture

1738
01:01:15,510 --> 01:01:13,599
a little bit faster

1739
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:15,520
uh but even then i don't know it's going

1740
01:01:19,030 --> 01:01:17,040
to be a real challenge and i think that

1741
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:19,040
just rem it's a good reminder for all of

1742
01:01:21,990 --> 01:01:19,920
us

1743
01:01:24,789 --> 01:01:22,000
that we need to

1744
01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:24,799
you know have some degree of mental

1745
01:01:28,230 --> 01:01:27,040
flexibility you know we need to be

1746
01:01:31,030 --> 01:01:28,240
able to

1747
01:01:34,150 --> 01:01:31,040
kind of roll with whatever might come

1748
01:01:35,829 --> 01:01:34,160
our way and leave an open mind because

1749
01:01:37,349 --> 01:01:35,839
you know to some degree

1750
01:01:38,950 --> 01:01:37,359
there's a little bit of truth and a

1751
01:01:41,430 --> 01:01:38,960
little bit of falsehood and just about

1752
01:01:44,069 --> 01:01:41,440
everything that we experience

1753
01:01:45,510 --> 01:01:44,079
in our in our collective life today

1754
01:01:46,470 --> 01:01:45,520
yeah absolutely true

1755
01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:46,480
um

1756
01:01:50,870 --> 01:01:48,880
you know it also occurs to me that

1757
01:01:52,390 --> 01:01:50,880
just to further the point that we've

1758
01:01:53,990 --> 01:01:52,400
both been making

1759
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:54,000
one of the techniques that has been

1760
01:01:59,670 --> 01:01:57,200
employed historically is to

1761
01:02:01,750 --> 01:01:59,680
say say if there's this sense that the

1762
01:02:03,349 --> 01:02:01,760
government and i say that in quotes

1763
01:02:05,589 --> 01:02:03,359
again because this is a complex picture

1764
01:02:06,710 --> 01:02:05,599
of a lot of different organizations

1765
01:02:08,309 --> 01:02:06,720
made

1766
01:02:09,910 --> 01:02:08,319
up of you know

1767
01:02:11,829 --> 01:02:09,920
a cross-section of our society so all

1768
01:02:14,069 --> 01:02:11,839
sorts of different world views existing

1769
01:02:15,910 --> 01:02:14,079
different personal agendas even within

1770
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:15,920
that so people need to keep that in mind

1771
01:02:21,430 --> 01:02:18,480
it does no good to set up the the

1772
01:02:22,870 --> 01:02:21,440
government as a boogeyman right um

1773
01:02:25,270 --> 01:02:22,880
or a straw man

1774
01:02:29,270 --> 01:02:27,750
but you know when you think back to um

1775
01:02:31,270 --> 01:02:29,280
you know like you say there are some

1776
01:02:33,190 --> 01:02:31,280
events that get reconstructed like

1777
01:02:36,150 --> 01:02:33,200
watergate or the pentagon papers when

1778
01:02:37,589 --> 01:02:36,160
that came out where people go okay so we

1779
01:02:39,910 --> 01:02:37,599
understand what happened now right we

1780
01:02:42,470 --> 01:02:39,920
have data that says this happened a

1781
01:02:43,349 --> 01:02:42,480
happened rather than b right and

1782
01:02:45,109 --> 01:02:43,359
certain

1783
01:02:48,150 --> 01:02:45,119
secret structures try to convince us of

1784
01:02:49,829 --> 01:02:48,160
b when really it was a

1785
01:02:51,750 --> 01:02:49,839
that works partly because you're still

1786
01:02:54,390 --> 01:02:51,760
within the same

1787
01:02:56,470 --> 01:02:54,400
overarching truth structure right

1788
01:02:57,589 --> 01:02:56,480
the challenge with the ufo phenomenon

1789
01:02:59,190 --> 01:02:57,599
and this is sort of building on what

1790
01:03:01,349 --> 01:02:59,200
you're hinting at there is that even

1791
01:03:03,750 --> 01:03:01,359
when you have data you still need

1792
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:03,760
analysis which involves inevitably

1793
01:03:09,510 --> 01:03:07,920
interpretation right and and part of the

1794
01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:09,520
challenge we're facing now is you have

1795
01:03:12,710 --> 01:03:11,440
certain groups like the collins elite

1796
01:03:14,950 --> 01:03:12,720
for instance

1797
01:03:18,230 --> 01:03:14,960
within government structures that have a

1798
01:03:19,829 --> 01:03:18,240
particular interpretive

1799
01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:19,839
perspective right

1800
01:03:22,710 --> 01:03:21,200
and

1801
01:03:23,829 --> 01:03:22,720
the challenge is

1802
01:03:26,630 --> 01:03:23,839
how do we

1803
01:03:28,470 --> 01:03:26,640
let that information in its raw form get

1804
01:03:31,750 --> 01:03:28,480
out to the public rather than just get

1805
01:03:33,910 --> 01:03:31,760
its interpreted uh representation out to

1806
01:03:36,069 --> 01:03:33,920
the public

1807
01:03:38,069 --> 01:03:36,079
i see a lot of people still in my mind

1808
01:03:39,589 --> 01:03:38,079
making the mistake of thinking

1809
01:03:41,829 --> 01:03:39,599
look these are people with high security

1810
01:03:43,270 --> 01:03:41,839
clearances with good educations surely

1811
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:43,280
they're not going to be biased by a

1812
01:03:46,710 --> 01:03:45,200
worldview perspective such as you know

1813
01:03:48,630 --> 01:03:46,720
religious history or religious

1814
01:03:50,150 --> 01:03:48,640
perspective so we can trust what they're

1815
01:03:52,069 --> 01:03:50,160
telling us if they're saying it's demons

1816
01:03:54,710 --> 01:03:52,079
it's got to be right and i've made this

1817
01:03:57,190 --> 01:03:54,720
point many times and i would just say

1818
01:03:58,710 --> 01:03:57,200
those people are your neighbors meaning

1819
01:04:00,390 --> 01:03:58,720
they're a cross-section of our society

1820
01:04:01,349 --> 01:04:00,400
with different world views

1821
01:04:03,670 --> 01:04:01,359
and

1822
01:04:06,230 --> 01:04:03,680
we we cannot trust that we need to have

1823
01:04:09,589 --> 01:04:06,240
the information in its raw format i do

1824
01:04:11,589 --> 01:04:09,599
not want someone who's an insider saying

1825
01:04:14,230 --> 01:04:11,599
all i got to tell you is it's it's it's

1826
01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:14,240
great news or it's bad news or it's

1827
01:04:18,870 --> 01:04:17,280
sobering or it's uh you know it's

1828
01:04:20,710 --> 01:04:18,880
challenging or

1829
01:04:22,950 --> 01:04:20,720
it's you know

1830
01:04:25,430 --> 01:04:22,960
fascinating those are all interpretive

1831
01:04:27,829 --> 01:04:25,440
words and it doesn't help me understand

1832
01:04:30,150 --> 01:04:27,839
what's actually in the data and what's

1833
01:04:31,430 --> 01:04:30,160
different about this process and you've

1834
01:04:32,630 --> 01:04:31,440
not you and i have talked about this

1835
01:04:33,990 --> 01:04:32,640
privately

1836
01:04:36,950 --> 01:04:34,000
that even the people that are working

1837
01:04:39,750 --> 01:04:36,960
towards again applying pressure to crack

1838
01:04:42,710 --> 01:04:39,760
this not open

1839
01:04:44,950 --> 01:04:42,720
the overarching and daunting question is

1840
01:04:46,950 --> 01:04:44,960
what happens when it does finally crack

1841
01:04:48,549 --> 01:04:46,960
when that data comes out you're going to

1842
01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:48,559
have all these different world views

1843
01:04:52,549 --> 01:04:50,480
interpreting now based on their own

1844
01:04:54,230 --> 01:04:52,559
perspectives many of them not being

1845
01:04:56,870 --> 01:04:54,240
aware that they have a biased

1846
01:04:58,549 --> 01:04:56,880
perspective as we all do at any point

1847
01:05:00,309 --> 01:04:58,559
and so you're going to then have some

1848
01:05:02,390 --> 01:05:00,319
pressures in the world because you're

1849
01:05:05,109 --> 01:05:02,400
going to have different interpretations

1850
01:05:06,710 --> 01:05:05,119
of what this means which is uh

1851
01:05:09,109 --> 01:05:06,720
you know is going to be challenging on

1852
01:05:10,950 --> 01:05:09,119
its own and i don't know that there's

1853
01:05:13,349 --> 01:05:10,960
any easy answer to that like like you

1854
01:05:14,950 --> 01:05:13,359
pointed out uh you know we're always in

1855
01:05:16,309 --> 01:05:14,960
a process of

1856
01:05:18,150 --> 01:05:16,319
evolving our understanding of what

1857
01:05:19,990 --> 01:05:18,160
reality itself is

1858
01:05:21,990 --> 01:05:20,000
but that said there are certain points

1859
01:05:23,270 --> 01:05:22,000
where there's more consensus agreement

1860
01:05:24,710 --> 01:05:23,280
than others

1861
01:05:26,950 --> 01:05:24,720
and

1862
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:26,960
just even aside of the ufo phenomenon in

1863
01:05:32,150 --> 01:05:29,440
our american culture we're really

1864
01:05:35,829 --> 01:05:32,160
seeing almost two distinct

1865
01:05:38,549 --> 01:05:35,839
world views play out right and uh

1866
01:05:40,950 --> 01:05:38,559
that just gives you a a hint of what's

1867
01:05:43,109 --> 01:05:40,960
going to happen when this emerges and

1868
01:05:44,150 --> 01:05:43,119
emerges on the global stage right so

1869
01:05:46,230 --> 01:05:44,160
you've got

1870
01:05:47,990 --> 01:05:46,240
all these different nation states with

1871
01:05:48,950 --> 01:05:48,000
different worldview perspectives within

1872
01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:48,960
those

1873
01:05:53,270 --> 01:05:50,880
different historical traditions that are

1874
01:05:55,430 --> 01:05:53,280
going to take that information and put

1875
01:05:57,510 --> 01:05:55,440
it through its own kind of filter

1876
01:05:59,109 --> 01:05:57,520
it's going to be a complex situation i

1877
01:06:01,270 --> 01:05:59,119
don't think any of us know what it's

1878
01:06:03,589 --> 01:06:01,280
going to produce ultimately

1879
01:06:05,109 --> 01:06:03,599
and there are so many directions it

1880
01:06:07,910 --> 01:06:05,119
could go from here that it's literally

1881
01:06:10,069 --> 01:06:07,920
almost impossible to accurately predict

1882
01:06:11,670 --> 01:06:10,079
even if you pull in sociologists and

1883
01:06:14,069 --> 01:06:11,680
psychologists

1884
01:06:15,510 --> 01:06:14,079
and different uh you know leaders of

1885
01:06:18,309 --> 01:06:15,520
different groups like the catholic

1886
01:06:19,990 --> 01:06:18,319
church and buddhists or whatever to try

1887
01:06:21,190 --> 01:06:20,000
and give their input

1888
01:06:23,109 --> 01:06:21,200
this is one of those things where

1889
01:06:26,230 --> 01:06:23,119
there's there's so many variables in

1890
01:06:27,670 --> 01:06:26,240
play that's very difficult to know

1891
01:06:30,870 --> 01:06:27,680
where this is going to go in the long

1892
01:06:32,789 --> 01:06:30,880
run and to what degree of course is is

1893
01:06:35,270 --> 01:06:32,799
the phenomenon itself going to play a

1894
01:06:36,309 --> 01:06:35,280
role to what degree will the phenomenon

1895
01:06:37,430 --> 01:06:36,319
try to

1896
01:06:38,309 --> 01:06:37,440
input

1897
01:06:41,270 --> 01:06:38,319
uh

1898
01:06:43,109 --> 01:06:41,280
you know various bits of information or

1899
01:06:44,390 --> 01:06:43,119
maybe even narrative

1900
01:06:46,390 --> 01:06:44,400
assistance

1901
01:06:48,950 --> 01:06:46,400
to uh to facilitate that but it's it's

1902
01:06:50,789 --> 01:06:48,960
going to be a uh

1903
01:06:54,069 --> 01:06:50,799
a civilization changing event no matter

1904
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:56,230
yeah i completely agree and and and this

1905
01:06:59,829 --> 01:06:57,599
is where

1906
01:07:01,589 --> 01:06:59,839
you know for me i'm going to emphasize

1907
01:07:03,670 --> 01:07:01,599
i'm going to put on kind of an old hat

1908
01:07:05,190 --> 01:07:03,680
that i've i wore in the past

1909
01:07:08,069 --> 01:07:05,200
sort of the pastoral hat or the

1910
01:07:11,109 --> 01:07:08,079
counselor hat in a previous life

1911
01:07:16,870 --> 01:07:13,109
regardless of

1912
01:07:21,510 --> 01:07:19,829
it doesn't change the fact that that we

1913
01:07:24,069 --> 01:07:21,520
as individuals

1914
01:07:25,190 --> 01:07:24,079
you know have things that we can do in

1915
01:07:28,150 --> 01:07:25,200
how we

1916
01:07:30,069 --> 01:07:28,160
comport ourselves and uh and and take

1917
01:07:31,829 --> 01:07:30,079
care of ourselves

1918
01:07:34,230 --> 01:07:31,839
and and how we how we

1919
01:07:35,990 --> 01:07:34,240
interact with one another in community

1920
01:07:38,390 --> 01:07:36,000
you know so these

1921
01:07:40,710 --> 01:07:38,400
grand revelations you know whatever they

1922
01:07:43,109 --> 01:07:40,720
are they don't absolve us of

1923
01:07:45,270 --> 01:07:43,119
responsibility uh to

1924
01:07:48,870 --> 01:07:45,280
to have and develop you know greater

1925
01:07:50,549 --> 01:07:48,880
self-awareness to uh to to to to think

1926
01:07:52,870 --> 01:07:50,559
about the way that we not only treat

1927
01:07:54,789 --> 01:07:52,880
ourselves but treat one another you know

1928
01:07:56,870 --> 01:07:54,799
to me these are the

1929
01:07:58,630 --> 01:07:56,880
the biggest issues

1930
01:08:00,870 --> 01:07:58,640
outside of

1931
01:08:03,270 --> 01:08:00,880
the technicalities and and you know for

1932
01:08:04,870 --> 01:08:03,280
that reason often kind of say

1933
01:08:07,029 --> 01:08:04,880
that ufos

1934
01:08:09,190 --> 01:08:07,039
and the paranormal and all of the these

1935
01:08:11,430 --> 01:08:09,200
things that constitute the phenomena you

1936
01:08:13,990 --> 01:08:11,440
know they're they're they're amazing

1937
01:08:15,910 --> 01:08:14,000
things and and you know they they're fun

1938
01:08:17,590 --> 01:08:15,920
to talk about they're you know they get

1939
01:08:19,510 --> 01:08:17,600
they certainly you know sort of light my

1940
01:08:21,829 --> 01:08:19,520
curiosity on fire

1941
01:08:24,309 --> 01:08:21,839
but they don't change some of the

1942
01:08:26,789 --> 01:08:24,319
fundamental things that we as human

1943
01:08:27,910 --> 01:08:26,799
beings have to deal with

1944
01:08:30,229 --> 01:08:27,920
you know so

1945
01:08:32,470 --> 01:08:30,239
this i think kind of is a maybe a good

1946
01:08:34,709 --> 01:08:32,480
segue to talking about

1947
01:08:36,470 --> 01:08:34,719
uh you know the buzzword that we've been

1948
01:08:38,149 --> 01:08:36,480
hearing a lot recently

1949
01:08:40,470 --> 01:08:38,159
uh at least in our circles and that

1950
01:08:42,229 --> 01:08:40,480
that's this notion of community

1951
01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:42,239
and what it means to kind of be in

1952
01:08:46,870 --> 01:08:44,080
community with one another

1953
01:08:49,669 --> 01:08:46,880
uh you know what is a community do we

1954
01:08:52,149 --> 01:08:49,679
have one uh in ufology you know is there

1955
01:08:53,749 --> 01:08:52,159
one you know sort of collection of folks

1956
01:08:56,070 --> 01:08:53,759
that we can point to and say you know

1957
01:08:58,309 --> 01:08:56,080
here we are kind of doing community

1958
01:09:00,149 --> 01:08:58,319
together and i think there are many ways

1959
01:09:02,950 --> 01:09:00,159
to think about

1960
01:09:05,110 --> 01:09:02,960
that issue and uh first of all i think

1961
01:09:07,189 --> 01:09:05,120
it's it's incredibly important everyone

1962
01:09:10,070 --> 01:09:07,199
needs a community everyone quite frankly

1963
01:09:12,070 --> 01:09:10,080
has a community already and we navigate

1964
01:09:13,910 --> 01:09:12,080
through several of them

1965
01:09:15,189 --> 01:09:13,920
in our day-to-day life you know i went

1966
01:09:17,349 --> 01:09:15,199
to the grocery store this morning you

1967
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:17,359
know for a brief period of time i was i

1968
01:09:21,510 --> 01:09:18,960
was part of a community of individuals

1969
01:09:23,590 --> 01:09:21,520
that were at that that store you know so

1970
01:09:26,070 --> 01:09:23,600
uh we kind of traffic in and out of

1971
01:09:27,829 --> 01:09:26,080
different groups of people all the time

1972
01:09:30,630 --> 01:09:27,839
but we have other you know certain

1973
01:09:32,630 --> 01:09:30,640
groups that we place a high degree of

1974
01:09:34,789 --> 01:09:32,640
primacy and importance on you know

1975
01:09:36,709 --> 01:09:34,799
things like our family uh maybe our

1976
01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:36,719
neighborhood if you're religious it

1977
01:09:40,070 --> 01:09:38,319
could be you know your religious

1978
01:09:41,829 --> 01:09:40,080
institution or house of worship or

1979
01:09:43,189 --> 01:09:41,839
whatever it could be an interest group

1980
01:09:45,030 --> 01:09:43,199
that that you have

1981
01:09:47,110 --> 01:09:45,040
uh i've got a long-standing community of

1982
01:09:48,789 --> 01:09:47,120
friends i like to play video games with

1983
01:09:50,950 --> 01:09:48,799
you know so there are lots of different

1984
01:09:55,030 --> 01:09:50,960
ways that human beings kind of organize

1985
01:09:56,310 --> 01:09:55,040
ourselves in into community uh but what

1986
01:09:58,550 --> 01:09:56,320
you know as you've thought about this a

1987
01:10:01,350 --> 01:09:58,560
lot i know you know what are some good

1988
01:10:03,669 --> 01:10:01,360
ways that we can look at the community

1989
01:10:05,669 --> 01:10:03,679
of individuals that that find this topic

1990
01:10:08,310 --> 01:10:05,679
in particular interesting

1991
01:10:10,310 --> 01:10:08,320
um and you know how do we

1992
01:10:11,590 --> 01:10:10,320
have a healthy conversation a healthy

1993
01:10:14,550 --> 01:10:11,600
understanding

1994
01:10:15,430 --> 01:10:14,560
of what that looks like and where do you

1995
01:10:17,910 --> 01:10:15,440
see

1996
01:10:20,870 --> 01:10:17,920
the community kind of moving

1997
01:10:23,510 --> 01:10:20,880
as as we continue to make progress uh in

1998
01:10:24,950 --> 01:10:23,520
various fronts uh with this issue in

1999
01:10:26,630 --> 01:10:24,960
particular

2000
01:10:28,950 --> 01:10:26,640
yeah the community catchword has

2001
01:10:30,550 --> 01:10:28,960
definitely been emerging a lot um i know

2002
01:10:32,470 --> 01:10:30,560
that we're we're both

2003
01:10:34,550 --> 01:10:32,480
based on our history really interested

2004
01:10:35,750 --> 01:10:34,560
in this and we are we are pro community

2005
01:10:38,550 --> 01:10:35,760
right we

2006
01:10:40,870 --> 01:10:38,560
we recognize that we we've we've lost

2007
01:10:42,950 --> 01:10:40,880
something to some degree in our society

2008
01:10:45,830 --> 01:10:42,960
um

2009
01:10:47,510 --> 01:10:45,840
because what the internet has enabled

2010
01:10:49,030 --> 01:10:47,520
amongst the many things that are so

2011
01:10:50,550 --> 01:10:49,040
great about it right we have access to

2012
01:10:51,430 --> 01:10:50,560
more information than

2013
01:10:54,470 --> 01:10:51,440
you know

2014
01:10:56,630 --> 01:10:54,480
10 000 library of alexandria's right

2015
01:10:58,390 --> 01:10:56,640
at any moment you can you need to fix

2016
01:10:59,750 --> 01:10:58,400
something in your house or

2017
01:11:01,270 --> 01:10:59,760
change your oil on your motorbike if

2018
01:11:03,669 --> 01:11:01,280
you're me you can just look up a youtube

2019
01:11:06,070 --> 01:11:03,679
video right

2020
01:11:07,910 --> 01:11:06,080
but what it's also done is it's it's

2021
01:11:09,350 --> 01:11:07,920
created these echo chambers right so

2022
01:11:10,870 --> 01:11:09,360
rather than

2023
01:11:13,590 --> 01:11:10,880
getting to know your neighbors who may

2024
01:11:16,310 --> 01:11:13,600
have different world views which

2025
01:11:18,550 --> 01:11:16,320
in an ideal situation helps expand your

2026
01:11:20,870 --> 01:11:18,560
own world view right that

2027
01:11:22,950 --> 01:11:20,880
there's a reason why you have more

2028
01:11:25,030 --> 01:11:22,960
progressive diverse cultures or more

2029
01:11:26,470 --> 01:11:25,040
progressive cultures along the coasts of

2030
01:11:28,470 --> 01:11:26,480
for instance our country

2031
01:11:29,990 --> 01:11:28,480
a lot of it comes down to you have more

2032
01:11:32,630 --> 01:11:30,000
immigrants in those areas because

2033
01:11:34,870 --> 01:11:32,640
they're you know access to the oceans

2034
01:11:37,350 --> 01:11:34,880
which exposes people to new ideas which

2035
01:11:39,189 --> 01:11:37,360
tends to expand their world view

2036
01:11:41,510 --> 01:11:39,199
in the same way when we

2037
01:11:43,510 --> 01:11:41,520
used to gather together uh with our

2038
01:11:45,510 --> 01:11:43,520
neighbors we were exposed to people that

2039
01:11:46,790 --> 01:11:45,520
maybe don't think exactly like we do or

2040
01:11:49,110 --> 01:11:46,800
have personality traits that are

2041
01:11:51,750 --> 01:11:49,120
different than what we maybe favor

2042
01:11:54,070 --> 01:11:51,760
and that was to our benefit um the

2043
01:11:55,750 --> 01:11:54,080
challenge with the internet is you can

2044
01:11:57,910 --> 01:11:55,760
find people that have the very same

2045
01:11:59,590 --> 01:11:57,920
personality as you believe the exact

2046
01:12:00,870 --> 01:11:59,600
same things about the world as you

2047
01:12:02,310 --> 01:12:00,880
believe the exact same things about

2048
01:12:04,229 --> 01:12:02,320
everything that's wrong with everybody

2049
01:12:06,709 --> 01:12:04,239
else and you get this echo chamber

2050
01:12:09,189 --> 01:12:06,719
that's self-reinforcing right and so you

2051
01:12:11,590 --> 01:12:09,199
end up with this demonization of

2052
01:12:13,510 --> 01:12:11,600
everyone who doesn't fit that and

2053
01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:13,520
even if you're in the minority you can

2054
01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:15,360
find enough people because you can pull

2055
01:12:20,149 --> 01:12:17,920
from a global pool uh that fit that

2056
01:12:22,550 --> 01:12:20,159
which does not serve us all very well

2057
01:12:24,709 --> 01:12:22,560
and we're really speaking of culture and

2058
01:12:26,310 --> 01:12:24,719
change and evolution we're really in the

2059
01:12:28,709 --> 01:12:26,320
midst of trying to figure out what that

2060
01:12:30,950 --> 01:12:28,719
looks like you know is it up to the to

2061
01:12:33,030 --> 01:12:30,960
the social media companies to police

2062
01:12:34,470 --> 01:12:33,040
that you know to try and say

2063
01:12:37,510 --> 01:12:34,480
our fact checkers have checked and

2064
01:12:38,790 --> 01:12:37,520
that's not true or this is true

2065
01:12:40,149 --> 01:12:38,800
sometimes that'll work in our favor and

2066
01:12:42,149 --> 01:12:40,159
sometimes it won't right there's for

2067
01:12:44,550 --> 01:12:42,159
instance there's a lot of bias against

2068
01:12:45,830 --> 01:12:44,560
the ufo phenomenon even today you still

2069
01:12:47,990 --> 01:12:45,840
see a lot of

2070
01:12:50,149 --> 01:12:48,000
suppression in search engine rankings

2071
01:12:52,709 --> 01:12:50,159
and whatnot of these kind of topics

2072
01:12:55,270 --> 01:12:52,719
right and you'll get like skeptical uh

2073
01:12:57,669 --> 01:12:55,280
wikipedia articles that show up first

2074
01:13:01,990 --> 01:13:00,470
but all that said

2075
01:13:04,149 --> 01:13:02,000
i also think we've talked about this

2076
01:13:06,390 --> 01:13:04,159
privately that some people sometimes

2077
01:13:07,990 --> 01:13:06,400
apply that term community too loosely

2078
01:13:10,229 --> 01:13:08,000
right they'll say

2079
01:13:12,550 --> 01:13:10,239
well the ufo twitter community is really

2080
01:13:13,990 --> 01:13:12,560
suffering this week right and what we

2081
01:13:15,270 --> 01:13:14,000
sometimes are not self-aware about is

2082
01:13:17,750 --> 01:13:15,280
the fact that we all have different

2083
01:13:18,470 --> 01:13:17,760
curated uh you know lists of people that

2084
01:13:20,550 --> 01:13:18,480
are

2085
01:13:22,709 --> 01:13:20,560
part of our particular version of ufo

2086
01:13:24,630 --> 01:13:22,719
twitter so for instance i curate mine in

2087
01:13:26,310 --> 01:13:24,640
such a way that i tend to avoid a lot of

2088
01:13:27,590 --> 01:13:26,320
the drama and only sort of hear about it

2089
01:13:28,709 --> 01:13:27,600
when people

2090
01:13:31,430 --> 01:13:28,719
repost

2091
01:13:32,709 --> 01:13:31,440
other people's comments about it

2092
01:13:34,790 --> 01:13:32,719
so that's the first thing to point out

2093
01:13:36,709 --> 01:13:34,800
is that it's actually more nuanced about

2094
01:13:38,390 --> 01:13:36,719
what ufo twitter actually is than we

2095
01:13:40,070 --> 01:13:38,400
sometimes acknowledge

2096
01:13:42,070 --> 01:13:40,080
um

2097
01:13:43,510 --> 01:13:42,080
another piece i would add is that uh and

2098
01:13:44,550 --> 01:13:43,520
we also talked about this before we went

2099
01:13:47,669 --> 01:13:44,560
on the air

2100
01:13:49,750 --> 01:13:47,679
that um

2101
01:13:52,229 --> 01:13:49,760
there are some people who have the most

2102
01:13:54,950 --> 01:13:52,239
global view on community right at the

2103
01:13:56,790 --> 01:13:54,960
ufo community who think that we're still

2104
01:13:59,110 --> 01:13:56,800
wrestling with questions around is this

2105
01:14:00,950 --> 01:13:59,120
real at all right is this really

2106
01:14:02,709 --> 01:14:00,960
happening or is it just all a

2107
01:14:05,510 --> 01:14:02,719
combination of misidentifications of

2108
01:14:07,669 --> 01:14:05,520
military flights and weather phenomena

2109
01:14:09,430 --> 01:14:07,679
and delusional people right there's

2110
01:14:11,510 --> 01:14:09,440
still some people answer asking and

2111
01:14:13,430 --> 01:14:11,520
wanting to answer that question

2112
01:14:15,110 --> 01:14:13,440
and so for instance you know

2113
01:14:16,950 --> 01:14:15,120
i'm going to be involved in speaking at

2114
01:14:19,350 --> 01:14:16,960
an event in new york which has

2115
01:14:21,910 --> 01:14:19,360
specifically already sort of kind of

2116
01:14:23,030 --> 01:14:21,920
moved past that question it's more

2117
01:14:25,750 --> 01:14:23,040
geared towards people who are

2118
01:14:28,470 --> 01:14:25,760
experiencers or who are interested in

2119
01:14:30,550 --> 01:14:28,480
the experience of experiencers and what

2120
01:14:32,790 --> 01:14:30,560
these anomalous experiences say about

2121
01:14:35,030 --> 01:14:32,800
reality and and how we can

2122
01:14:36,229 --> 01:14:35,040
live lives when these kind of events are

2123
01:14:37,990 --> 01:14:36,239
happening

2124
01:14:39,750 --> 01:14:38,000
but this week you know there's a couple

2125
01:14:43,189 --> 01:14:39,760
people who said oh is there a reason why

2126
01:14:45,510 --> 01:14:43,199
no skeptics are invited to this event

2127
01:14:47,910 --> 01:14:46,870
again i think from their perspective

2128
01:14:50,070 --> 01:14:47,920
they're saying

2129
01:14:52,149 --> 01:14:50,080
oh because every ufo conference should

2130
01:14:53,990 --> 01:14:52,159
be asking these base questions rather

2131
01:14:57,110 --> 01:14:54,000
than acknowledging no there are

2132
01:14:58,630 --> 01:14:57,120
different subgroups within ufo

2133
01:15:00,550 --> 01:14:58,640
twitter even right

2134
01:15:02,950 --> 01:15:00,560
and it's okay

2135
01:15:04,390 --> 01:15:02,960
to acknowledge that different people

2136
01:15:05,830 --> 01:15:04,400
will get together

2137
01:15:07,830 --> 01:15:05,840
if you want to have a skeptic's group

2138
01:15:10,870 --> 01:15:07,840
you can and i say go for it you know

2139
01:15:12,870 --> 01:15:10,880
like i'm not i'm not saying let's say

2140
01:15:15,189 --> 01:15:12,880
some questions can't be asked anymore if

2141
01:15:17,350 --> 01:15:15,199
that's where you're at then

2142
01:15:19,910 --> 01:15:17,360
go to it you know like more power to you

2143
01:15:21,510 --> 01:15:19,920
keep asking that question as you can but

2144
01:15:23,430 --> 01:15:21,520
don't try to suppress those who feel

2145
01:15:25,270 --> 01:15:23,440
like there is abundant evidence that

2146
01:15:28,390 --> 01:15:25,280
they're already on to the second level

2147
01:15:33,830 --> 01:15:32,229
yeah exactly and it reminds me of uh

2148
01:15:35,910 --> 01:15:33,840
you know those who sort of made it their

2149
01:15:38,709 --> 01:15:35,920
mission to kind of

2150
01:15:40,150 --> 01:15:38,719
go after groups that they disagree with

2151
01:15:41,669 --> 01:15:40,160
you know so if you've ever been

2152
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:41,679
[Music]

2153
01:15:46,149 --> 01:15:43,600
i mean a good example of this is you

2154
01:15:47,270 --> 01:15:46,159
know there are certain atheists who you

2155
01:15:49,510 --> 01:15:47,280
know spend

2156
01:15:52,790 --> 01:15:49,520
a lot of their energy and time

2157
01:15:55,830 --> 01:15:52,800
really working hard to try to dismantle

2158
01:15:57,910 --> 01:15:55,840
uh the the things that they find wrong

2159
01:15:59,750 --> 01:15:57,920
about you know organized religion a

2160
01:16:01,430 --> 01:15:59,760
religious belief generally you know so

2161
01:16:02,790 --> 01:16:01,440
every kind of waking moment you know

2162
01:16:04,709 --> 01:16:02,800
they're they're kind of

2163
01:16:06,630 --> 01:16:04,719
putting together arguments and engaging

2164
01:16:08,310 --> 01:16:06,640
with those communities to

2165
01:16:11,350 --> 01:16:08,320
you know with the hope of convincing

2166
01:16:14,470 --> 01:16:11,360
them that their religious beliefs are

2167
01:16:15,750 --> 01:16:14,480
you know are wrong um and you know you

2168
01:16:16,870 --> 01:16:15,760
certainly can do that and we talked

2169
01:16:18,550 --> 01:16:16,880
about

2170
01:16:20,550 --> 01:16:18,560
energy earlier and you know there are

2171
01:16:22,470 --> 01:16:20,560
some individuals where that's just a

2172
01:16:24,709 --> 01:16:22,480
need that they have you know to kind of

2173
01:16:27,270 --> 01:16:24,719
to work that out and and to

2174
01:16:29,030 --> 01:16:27,280
engage with people in that way and that

2175
01:16:29,990 --> 01:16:29,040
becomes their identity

2176
01:16:32,830 --> 01:16:30,000
um

2177
01:16:36,149 --> 01:16:32,840
no amount of uh you know

2178
01:16:37,430 --> 01:16:36,159
of thoughtful conversation or or talk or

2179
01:16:39,750 --> 01:16:37,440
whatever is going to change the fact

2180
01:16:41,590 --> 01:16:39,760
that people are going to do that right

2181
01:16:43,990 --> 01:16:41,600
um you know so

2182
01:16:44,950 --> 01:16:44,000
it's just the way that things are

2183
01:16:47,030 --> 01:16:44,960
but

2184
01:16:49,350 --> 01:16:47,040
you know even still

2185
01:16:51,270 --> 01:16:49,360
it's okay for folks to organize around

2186
01:16:53,510 --> 01:16:51,280
things that they feel a conviction on

2187
01:16:55,270 --> 01:16:53,520
you know that they can i mean we do this

2188
01:16:57,030 --> 01:16:55,280
all the time you know we have friends

2189
01:16:58,149 --> 01:16:57,040
that we like because we share common

2190
01:17:01,030 --> 01:16:58,159
interests

2191
01:17:03,590 --> 01:17:01,040
and uh you know we don't uh think of our

2192
01:17:05,590 --> 01:17:03,600
friend groups as uh you know who who

2193
01:17:07,669 --> 01:17:05,600
love going to you know do whatever it is

2194
01:17:08,390 --> 01:17:07,679
together you know whether play a sport

2195
01:17:14,790 --> 01:17:08,400
or

2196
01:17:16,630 --> 01:17:14,800
we we like doing together you know we

2197
01:17:18,870 --> 01:17:16,640
don't think of those people as uh

2198
01:17:20,630 --> 01:17:18,880
engaged in some sort of a cult of

2199
01:17:22,709 --> 01:17:20,640
football you know

2200
01:17:24,950 --> 01:17:22,719
we could call it that um but i think

2201
01:17:26,870 --> 01:17:24,960
using the word uh cult

2202
01:17:29,270 --> 01:17:26,880
you know for them for the most part in

2203
01:17:30,630 --> 01:17:29,280
our culture

2204
01:17:32,790 --> 01:17:30,640
you know it's kind of used in a

2205
01:17:33,750 --> 01:17:32,800
pejorative sense you know if we're using

2206
01:17:36,149 --> 01:17:33,760
that

2207
01:17:38,470 --> 01:17:36,159
term we often are

2208
01:17:40,229 --> 01:17:38,480
you know trying to put someone else down

2209
01:17:41,990 --> 01:17:40,239
we're trying to in-group and out-group

2210
01:17:43,990 --> 01:17:42,000
individuals

2211
01:17:45,910 --> 01:17:44,000
with the intention of painting them in a

2212
01:17:47,669 --> 01:17:45,920
negative light you know the reality is

2213
01:17:49,830 --> 01:17:47,679
we all have our interest groups we all

2214
01:17:52,229 --> 01:17:49,840
like you know congregating around people

2215
01:17:54,310 --> 01:17:52,239
that we enjoy being with uh and that

2216
01:17:56,550 --> 01:17:54,320
often is people that we find ourselves

2217
01:17:58,550 --> 01:17:56,560
in agreement with um i do think that

2218
01:18:00,470 --> 01:17:58,560
healthy communities

2219
01:18:02,630 --> 01:18:00,480
are going to make space for

2220
01:18:04,149 --> 01:18:02,640
um and in some ways even kind of

2221
01:18:05,590 --> 01:18:04,159
ritualize

2222
01:18:06,550 --> 01:18:05,600
uh

2223
01:18:13,750 --> 01:18:06,560
the

2224
01:18:14,790 --> 01:18:13,760
or whatever it may be

2225
01:18:16,630 --> 01:18:14,800
you know at least the healthy

2226
01:18:18,470 --> 01:18:16,640
communities that i've been a part of

2227
01:18:20,470 --> 01:18:18,480
don't seem to shy away from that they

2228
01:18:22,070 --> 01:18:20,480
certainly you know

2229
01:18:24,390 --> 01:18:22,080
wrestle with it i mean

2230
01:18:26,070 --> 01:18:24,400
i've been a part of you know many kind

2231
01:18:28,229 --> 01:18:26,080
of organizations that have had those

2232
01:18:29,590 --> 01:18:28,239
voices and you know you can kind of

2233
01:18:30,709 --> 01:18:29,600
leave the group discussion going well

2234
01:18:32,229 --> 01:18:30,719
here we go again we're going to talk

2235
01:18:35,030 --> 01:18:32,239
about this and it's just kind of

2236
01:18:36,229 --> 01:18:35,040
exhausting but at the same time

2237
01:18:39,430 --> 01:18:36,239
you know i think if you're really

2238
01:18:41,510 --> 01:18:39,440
genuinely invested in in the individuals

2239
01:18:44,149 --> 01:18:41,520
and you're doing you're engaging in good

2240
01:18:46,310 --> 01:18:44,159
faith it really shouldn't bother you

2241
01:18:47,910 --> 01:18:46,320
because it's either going to strengthen

2242
01:18:50,470 --> 01:18:47,920
your your beliefs and your you know your

2243
01:18:51,990 --> 01:18:50,480
conviction or it's not and either way is

2244
01:18:55,750 --> 01:18:52,000
okay we all have our own kind of

2245
01:18:56,630 --> 01:18:55,760
journeys to take here yeah uh it is it

2246
01:18:58,790 --> 01:18:56,640
is a

2247
01:19:02,310 --> 01:18:58,800
it's a complex situation because we're

2248
01:19:06,390 --> 01:19:03,910
we all want to

2249
01:19:08,550 --> 01:19:06,400
acknowledge uh the humanity in each

2250
01:19:10,229 --> 01:19:08,560
other right that that in the biggest

2251
01:19:11,270 --> 01:19:10,239
community picture we are all human

2252
01:19:14,390 --> 01:19:11,280
beings

2253
01:19:16,870 --> 01:19:14,400
um and we have numerous factors that

2254
01:19:18,950 --> 01:19:16,880
have influenced who we are and why we

2255
01:19:22,550 --> 01:19:18,960
adopt any particular worldview why we're

2256
01:19:24,149 --> 01:19:22,560
a cynic or a skeptic or not right um

2257
01:19:26,070 --> 01:19:24,159
you know you look at someone like a mick

2258
01:19:28,310 --> 01:19:26,080
west and uh you know there are some

2259
01:19:30,070 --> 01:19:28,320
people who really look back on

2260
01:19:32,229 --> 01:19:30,080
all of the damage that was done when we

2261
01:19:34,310 --> 01:19:32,239
used to burn witches right when the

2262
01:19:36,790 --> 01:19:34,320
church had power and how that was not

2263
01:19:38,550 --> 01:19:36,800
based on reason and rationality and so

2264
01:19:41,669 --> 01:19:38,560
someone like a mick west or people like

2265
01:19:43,750 --> 01:19:41,679
him look at

2266
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:43,760
you know with maybe not the the most

2267
01:19:48,870 --> 01:19:45,920
accurate lens though they kind of

2268
01:19:50,790 --> 01:19:48,880
associate those who are enthusiastic

2269
01:19:52,709 --> 01:19:50,800
about ufos potentially representing

2270
01:19:54,550 --> 01:19:52,719
alien visitation

2271
01:19:57,270 --> 01:19:54,560
in that same sort of light they sort of

2272
01:20:01,590 --> 01:19:57,280
see it as that more of that irrational

2273
01:20:03,750 --> 01:20:01,600
unreasonable ungrounded in facts

2274
01:20:06,550 --> 01:20:03,760
perspectives that ultimately can do a

2275
01:20:08,390 --> 01:20:06,560
lot of damage and i think we need to

2276
01:20:11,030 --> 01:20:08,400
acknowledge that right that there there

2277
01:20:13,430 --> 01:20:11,040
can be good reasons why people have

2278
01:20:15,750 --> 01:20:13,440
adopted that skeptical approach it's not

2279
01:20:17,510 --> 01:20:15,760
just that they're all mean people uh or

2280
01:20:18,870 --> 01:20:17,520
they just like to be debbie downers

2281
01:20:20,149 --> 01:20:18,880
right like some some people really

2282
01:20:21,990 --> 01:20:20,159
believe that

2283
01:20:23,510 --> 01:20:22,000
um in in their heart of hearts they

2284
01:20:26,070 --> 01:20:23,520
believe that

2285
01:20:28,870 --> 01:20:26,080
to let people believe these kind of uh

2286
01:20:31,510 --> 01:20:28,880
fantastical things ultimately does harm

2287
01:20:33,110 --> 01:20:31,520
to the civilization like even violent

2288
01:20:36,790 --> 01:20:33,120
harm based on our history and they're

2289
01:20:37,830 --> 01:20:36,800
absolutely right that has happened

2290
01:20:40,630 --> 01:20:37,840
but

2291
01:20:42,709 --> 01:20:40,640
sometimes we can overreact right i've

2292
01:20:45,030 --> 01:20:42,719
talked many times on this program about

2293
01:20:47,430 --> 01:20:45,040
um how we have these pendulum swings

2294
01:20:49,750 --> 01:20:47,440
right even as an entire culture

2295
01:20:51,590 --> 01:20:49,760
so uh coming out of the the church

2296
01:20:54,390 --> 01:20:51,600
having the rule

2297
01:20:56,470 --> 01:20:54,400
once that that kind of impact and that

2298
01:20:58,950 --> 01:20:56,480
that rule diminished you had people

2299
01:21:01,030 --> 01:20:58,960
within the scientific community saying

2300
01:21:03,430 --> 01:21:01,040
now wait a second that whole thing was

2301
01:21:05,830 --> 01:21:03,440
not only hogwash but it did incredibly

2302
01:21:07,270 --> 01:21:05,840
incredible damage to our civilization so

2303
01:21:09,750 --> 01:21:07,280
we're going to do everything we can to

2304
01:21:10,470 --> 01:21:09,760
stamp out every last ember of it right

2305
01:21:11,910 --> 01:21:10,480
like

2306
01:21:14,149 --> 01:21:11,920
you brought up the point have some

2307
01:21:16,390 --> 01:21:14,159
atheists kind of have that as their you

2308
01:21:18,070 --> 01:21:16,400
know their ongoing mission i remember

2309
01:21:19,750 --> 01:21:18,080
hearing uh someone who was like the

2310
01:21:22,390 --> 01:21:19,760
president of president of a certain

2311
01:21:23,990 --> 01:21:22,400
psychological association

2312
01:21:25,910 --> 01:21:24,000
say that you know

2313
01:21:27,750 --> 01:21:25,920
our role as psychologist and

2314
01:21:29,110 --> 01:21:27,760
psychiatrist should be to stamp out

2315
01:21:31,350 --> 01:21:29,120
religion

2316
01:21:32,790 --> 01:21:31,360
like stamp out really just belief which

2317
01:21:34,870 --> 01:21:32,800
is a strange

2318
01:21:37,830 --> 01:21:34,880
mission for a the president of a

2319
01:21:38,950 --> 01:21:37,840
psychological association to take um it

2320
01:21:40,950 --> 01:21:38,960
seems to me that you should just go

2321
01:21:43,030 --> 01:21:40,960
where the data you know leads you and

2322
01:21:45,669 --> 01:21:43,040
not begin with a mission

2323
01:21:47,030 --> 01:21:45,679
a priori that's based on a pre-existing

2324
01:21:49,910 --> 01:21:47,040
position

2325
01:21:50,950 --> 01:21:49,920
but this is the this is the challenge uh

2326
01:21:53,510 --> 01:21:50,960
and

2327
01:21:56,470 --> 01:21:53,520
there's not simple answers um

2328
01:21:58,229 --> 01:21:56,480
but we need to regardless move forward

2329
01:21:59,189 --> 01:21:58,239
regardless of what community we are a

2330
01:22:01,030 --> 01:21:59,199
part of

2331
01:22:03,189 --> 01:22:01,040
remembering that in the larger sense we

2332
01:22:05,430 --> 01:22:03,199
are you know part of the the human

2333
01:22:07,990 --> 01:22:05,440
community and i would even argue um you

2334
01:22:11,110 --> 01:22:08,000
know this intergalactic

2335
01:22:13,189 --> 01:22:11,120
community of sentient agents

2336
01:22:15,189 --> 01:22:13,199
that all have more in common than we

2337
01:22:20,229 --> 01:22:15,199
don't and we sometimes do a disservice

2338
01:22:23,590 --> 01:22:21,350
well said

2339
01:22:26,470 --> 01:22:23,600
once we kind of wind down the the

2340
01:22:28,390 --> 01:22:26,480
episode um what are some things that uh

2341
01:22:30,870 --> 01:22:28,400
are kind of top of mind for you

2342
01:22:32,709 --> 01:22:30,880
as we look ahead not only with uh our

2343
01:22:35,910 --> 01:22:32,719
show liminal frames but point of

2344
01:22:37,750 --> 01:22:35,920
convergence and and then outside of the

2345
01:22:39,270 --> 01:22:37,760
kind of the shows you know what are some

2346
01:22:41,030 --> 01:22:39,280
things coming up on horizon i know you

2347
01:22:42,629 --> 01:22:41,040
mentioned the symposium in new york very

2348
01:22:45,270 --> 01:22:42,639
excited about that hopefully these folks

2349
01:22:47,590 --> 01:22:45,280
can either attend in person or

2350
01:22:49,430 --> 01:22:47,600
you can attend that digitally it'll be

2351
01:22:51,030 --> 01:22:49,440
an excellent conversation series of

2352
01:22:52,870 --> 01:22:51,040
conversations

2353
01:22:55,350 --> 01:22:52,880
but what are some things that you know

2354
01:22:56,790 --> 01:22:55,360
you see happening on the horizon

2355
01:22:59,030 --> 01:22:56,800
yeah on that on that one point there

2356
01:23:00,950 --> 01:22:59,040
with the the symposium what's so

2357
01:23:02,550 --> 01:23:00,960
exciting about that is that it's it's a

2358
01:23:04,310 --> 01:23:02,560
you know a living breathing example of

2359
01:23:06,790 --> 01:23:04,320
what we've been talking about like

2360
01:23:08,149 --> 01:23:06,800
getting together with people in 3d

2361
01:23:09,189 --> 01:23:08,159
you know breaking bread with people

2362
01:23:10,629 --> 01:23:09,199
literally

2363
01:23:12,950 --> 01:23:10,639
and um

2364
01:23:14,790 --> 01:23:12,960
and getting to know people in more of a

2365
01:23:15,669 --> 01:23:14,800
full picture of who they really are

2366
01:23:18,070 --> 01:23:15,679
right

2367
01:23:21,350 --> 01:23:18,080
um i think that's essential

2368
01:23:23,590 --> 01:23:21,360
and that unlike ufo twitter you can't

2369
01:23:25,510 --> 01:23:23,600
completely curate who who's on that list

2370
01:23:27,270 --> 01:23:25,520
and who's who's not right so

2371
01:23:28,790 --> 01:23:27,280
that means you're going to end up uh you

2372
01:23:31,110 --> 01:23:28,800
know interacting with people who maybe

2373
01:23:32,870 --> 01:23:31,120
don't have the same perspective as you

2374
01:23:35,030 --> 01:23:32,880
even though some you know

2375
01:23:36,390 --> 01:23:35,040
critics would say well you're you're

2376
01:23:39,430 --> 01:23:36,400
limiting who's going to be there based

2377
01:23:42,310 --> 01:23:39,440
on the nature of the discussion points

2378
01:23:43,910 --> 01:23:42,320
fair enough that's true to some degree

2379
01:23:45,910 --> 01:23:43,920
um you know mick west probably is not

2380
01:23:47,750 --> 01:23:45,920
going to want to attend that conference

2381
01:23:48,790 --> 01:23:47,760
but mick you're welcome if you want to

2382
01:23:51,110 --> 01:23:48,800
um

2383
01:23:53,110 --> 01:23:51,120
but nevertheless even within that you're

2384
01:23:54,550 --> 01:23:53,120
going to run into people who maybe have

2385
01:23:56,229 --> 01:23:54,560
challenging personalities from your

2386
01:23:58,229 --> 01:23:56,239
point of view or see certain things

2387
01:23:59,830 --> 01:23:58,239
differently than you do or

2388
01:24:01,270 --> 01:23:59,840
have certain

2389
01:24:03,350 --> 01:24:01,280
aspects of themselves that they're not

2390
01:24:05,750 --> 01:24:03,360
self-aware about that seem more glaring

2391
01:24:07,189 --> 01:24:05,760
to you but that's all good i mean i

2392
01:24:09,350 --> 01:24:07,199
think that um

2393
01:24:11,510 --> 01:24:09,360
it makes us more gracious towards our

2394
01:24:13,189 --> 01:24:11,520
fellow human beings when we do interact

2395
01:24:14,229 --> 01:24:13,199
because again we're reminded more of

2396
01:24:16,070 --> 01:24:14,239
what we

2397
01:24:18,229 --> 01:24:16,080
we have in common rather than what makes

2398
01:24:19,510 --> 01:24:18,239
us different

2399
01:24:22,070 --> 01:24:19,520
another thing i would say in terms of

2400
01:24:24,229 --> 01:24:22,080
what i'm looking forward to is

2401
01:24:26,390 --> 01:24:24,239
and this touches on something you asked

2402
01:24:27,830 --> 01:24:26,400
about earlier which is

2403
01:24:29,830 --> 01:24:27,840
if it's not through government

2404
01:24:31,350 --> 01:24:29,840
disclosure you know what is going to

2405
01:24:34,229 --> 01:24:31,360
crack this nut

2406
01:24:36,550 --> 01:24:34,239
i would just say that

2407
01:24:39,910 --> 01:24:36,560
i would point people to

2408
01:24:41,990 --> 01:24:39,920
how certain topics uh tend to go viral

2409
01:24:45,189 --> 01:24:42,000
in our current society

2410
01:24:46,950 --> 01:24:45,199
as much as it was a great uh event uh

2411
01:24:49,110 --> 01:24:46,960
historically when the new york times

2412
01:24:51,430 --> 01:24:49,120
published those articles you know from

2413
01:24:53,669 --> 01:24:51,440
ralph blumenthal and leslie kane

2414
01:24:55,510 --> 01:24:53,679
in 2017

2415
01:24:57,110 --> 01:24:55,520
actually sometimes not only as

2416
01:24:58,629 --> 01:24:57,120
government but even newspapers and

2417
01:25:00,550 --> 01:24:58,639
journalists these days

2418
01:25:02,709 --> 01:25:00,560
are actually responsive to these

2419
01:25:04,070 --> 01:25:02,719
groundswell movements that can form

2420
01:25:06,550 --> 01:25:04,080
right that that

2421
01:25:08,390 --> 01:25:06,560
don't originate there but end up

2422
01:25:09,990 --> 01:25:08,400
being talked about there and there are

2423
01:25:12,709 --> 01:25:10,000
certain people for instance in our

2424
01:25:13,830 --> 01:25:12,719
society that have a lot of influence

2425
01:25:16,070 --> 01:25:13,840
right

2426
01:25:18,550 --> 01:25:16,080
on social media now

2427
01:25:22,070 --> 01:25:18,560
i will say this if you can get

2428
01:25:24,070 --> 01:25:22,080
some of those people to see the evidence

2429
01:25:25,990 --> 01:25:24,080
that don't have the biases that say that

2430
01:25:28,629 --> 01:25:26,000
the scientific mainstream has or the

2431
01:25:30,950 --> 01:25:28,639
government system has then you could

2432
01:25:33,350 --> 01:25:30,960
suddenly overnight

2433
01:25:35,830 --> 01:25:33,360
ignite a fire that would end up

2434
01:25:37,669 --> 01:25:35,840
inevitably impacting those newspapers

2435
01:25:39,189 --> 01:25:37,679
and those government systems because

2436
01:25:41,830 --> 01:25:39,199
some of those people have so much

2437
01:25:44,310 --> 01:25:41,840
influence so this is a way we could take

2438
01:25:47,430 --> 01:25:44,320
you know the internet for all its flaws

2439
01:25:49,350 --> 01:25:47,440
and benefits and really use it

2440
01:25:51,830 --> 01:25:49,360
for towards good ends here really

2441
01:25:54,070 --> 01:25:51,840
productive ends that if you can persuade

2442
01:25:56,229 --> 01:25:54,080
some of those people that don't have

2443
01:25:57,990 --> 01:25:56,239
these biases and aren't part of these

2444
01:26:00,709 --> 01:25:58,000
and aren't beholden to these systems

2445
01:26:02,390 --> 01:26:00,719
like mainstream science and the academic

2446
01:26:03,669 --> 01:26:02,400
game right which has it's all these

2447
01:26:06,629 --> 01:26:03,679
structures in place that make it

2448
01:26:07,910 --> 01:26:06,639
difficult to even ask certain questions

2449
01:26:09,830 --> 01:26:07,920
some of these people are outside of

2450
01:26:11,270 --> 01:26:09,840
those structures and if one or two of

2451
01:26:12,550 --> 01:26:11,280
those people

2452
01:26:13,430 --> 01:26:12,560
can

2453
01:26:16,229 --> 01:26:13,440
get

2454
01:26:18,790 --> 01:26:16,239
a hold of this and be a lit by it right

2455
01:26:21,270 --> 01:26:18,800
be really taken with wait a second this

2456
01:26:23,430 --> 01:26:21,280
is the biggest question this should be

2457
01:26:25,030 --> 01:26:23,440
front page news in the new york times

2458
01:26:27,270 --> 01:26:25,040
some of these people getting involved

2459
01:26:29,510 --> 01:26:27,280
could be the very historical event that

2460
01:26:32,550 --> 01:26:29,520
makes this a front page story of the new

2461
01:26:36,470 --> 01:26:34,790
i love that yeah we can go after the

2462
01:26:38,870 --> 01:26:36,480
influencers and kind of see what might

2463
01:26:40,310 --> 01:26:38,880
happen there uh yeah and for me just

2464
01:26:42,790 --> 01:26:40,320
personally i i

2465
01:26:44,229 --> 01:26:42,800
over the last several months my energy

2466
01:26:46,229 --> 01:26:44,239
has been

2467
01:26:49,990 --> 01:26:46,239
really kind of tried i tried to direct

2468
01:26:51,110 --> 01:26:50,000
it toward more personal engagement um

2469
01:26:52,950 --> 01:26:51,120
and so

2470
01:26:54,390 --> 01:26:52,960
uh that can be

2471
01:26:56,390 --> 01:26:54,400
trying to deepen relationship that i

2472
01:26:59,110 --> 01:26:56,400
have uh in a virtual sense with people

2473
01:27:01,430 --> 01:26:59,120
that i've encountered on my journey here

2474
01:27:02,790 --> 01:27:01,440
getting to know them in a better way a

2475
01:27:05,350 --> 01:27:02,800
deeper way

2476
01:27:08,149 --> 01:27:05,360
knowing more of who they are as a person

2477
01:27:10,390 --> 01:27:08,159
outside of just uh their beliefs or or

2478
01:27:13,750 --> 01:27:10,400
behaviors within you know the the

2479
01:27:15,350 --> 01:27:13,760
twitter community or the ufo community

2480
01:27:17,990 --> 01:27:15,360
and i'm looking for ways to continue to

2481
01:27:19,750 --> 01:27:18,000
do that ahead i think that um there's a

2482
01:27:22,629 --> 01:27:19,760
tremendous amount of value

2483
01:27:24,790 --> 01:27:22,639
to having a deeper engagement with

2484
01:27:26,470 --> 01:27:24,800
individuals particularly when it comes

2485
01:27:27,750 --> 01:27:26,480
to this topic and i don't mean that just

2486
01:27:29,669 --> 01:27:27,760
in the sense of

2487
01:27:31,669 --> 01:27:29,679
uh you know it's great to know people

2488
01:27:33,830 --> 01:27:31,679
and and and you know develop closer

2489
01:27:35,270 --> 01:27:33,840
friendships but i really think i think

2490
01:27:36,629 --> 01:27:35,280
of it from the standpoint of there is

2491
01:27:40,149 --> 01:27:36,639
something

2492
01:27:42,390 --> 01:27:40,159
uh fundamentally valuable about

2493
01:27:44,229 --> 01:27:42,400
developing relationships with people

2494
01:27:45,990 --> 01:27:44,239
generally you know that there's

2495
01:27:47,910 --> 01:27:46,000
something special and i think we've all

2496
01:27:49,750 --> 01:27:47,920
experienced this at least i hope we all

2497
01:27:52,390 --> 01:27:49,760
have experienced this at some point in

2498
01:27:55,270 --> 01:27:52,400
our lives whether it be through family

2499
01:27:56,709 --> 01:27:55,280
uh or a friendship or a partnership you

2500
01:27:57,430 --> 01:27:56,719
know where we've

2501
01:28:00,550 --> 01:27:57,440
we

2502
01:28:02,709 --> 01:28:00,560
quantify

2503
01:28:04,950 --> 01:28:02,719
uh you know you know feeling and and

2504
01:28:07,590 --> 01:28:04,960
sense of uh importance

2505
01:28:10,149 --> 01:28:07,600
in in human relationship and

2506
01:28:12,229 --> 01:28:10,159
there there's a lot of power there

2507
01:28:14,149 --> 01:28:12,239
uh when we when we can find that and

2508
01:28:15,350 --> 01:28:14,159
nurture that and i would encourage

2509
01:28:18,070 --> 01:28:15,360
people

2510
01:28:20,149 --> 01:28:18,080
to look for ways that they can do that

2511
01:28:21,270 --> 01:28:20,159
you know just broadly it doesn't have to

2512
01:28:22,070 --> 01:28:21,280
be

2513
01:28:24,470 --> 01:28:22,080
with

2514
01:28:26,550 --> 01:28:24,480
you know the ufo community it can be any

2515
01:28:27,830 --> 01:28:26,560
community that you are involved in you

2516
01:28:30,870 --> 01:28:27,840
know kind of lean into those

2517
01:28:32,790 --> 01:28:30,880
relationships uh you know try to be a

2518
01:28:35,030 --> 01:28:32,800
little bit more authentic and

2519
01:28:36,870 --> 01:28:35,040
more personable and vulnerable at least

2520
01:28:37,910 --> 01:28:36,880
in ways that that are appropriate for

2521
01:28:41,350 --> 01:28:37,920
you

2522
01:28:44,149 --> 01:28:41,360
when we can do that

2523
01:28:45,430 --> 01:28:44,159
we can find opportunity to do that

2524
01:28:47,669 --> 01:28:45,440
we really

2525
01:28:49,590 --> 01:28:47,679
you know improve the overall quality of

2526
01:28:52,310 --> 01:28:49,600
our our individual lives our collective

2527
01:28:54,709 --> 01:28:52,320
lives and and i think the the life of

2528
01:28:56,550 --> 01:28:54,719
our our world you know so we need more

2529
01:28:58,390 --> 01:28:56,560
of that not less

2530
01:28:59,830 --> 01:28:58,400
and we've we've kind of

2531
01:29:01,590 --> 01:28:59,840
found ourselves in a time period in

2532
01:29:03,910 --> 01:29:01,600
human history where we're we're a little

2533
01:29:06,149 --> 01:29:03,920
bit unmoored we we haven't been doing

2534
01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:06,159
that as well as we used to do it and i

2535
01:29:10,070 --> 01:29:07,840
think we need to kind of bring some of

2536
01:29:11,990 --> 01:29:10,080
that back and and you know look for ways

2537
01:29:14,229 --> 01:29:12,000
at least i'm looking for ways where i

2538
01:29:16,550 --> 01:29:14,239
can do that in a more meaningful way

2539
01:29:19,990 --> 01:29:16,560
yeah it's a great point and i i say here

2540
01:29:21,990 --> 01:29:20,000
here um and i would just add that

2541
01:29:24,070 --> 01:29:22,000
there's even an energetic reason why

2542
01:29:26,470 --> 01:29:24,080
that's important and that is that you

2543
01:29:29,110 --> 01:29:26,480
know like even to pull up something that

2544
01:29:31,750 --> 01:29:29,120
is recorded as being uttered from the

2545
01:29:34,709 --> 01:29:31,760
the lips of jesus right um where two or

2546
01:29:36,709 --> 01:29:34,719
more are gathered right it's this notion

2547
01:29:38,390 --> 01:29:36,719
that um

2548
01:29:39,750 --> 01:29:38,400
uh actually was it jesus i forget who

2549
01:29:42,070 --> 01:29:39,760
said it but it's in the bible anyway in

2550
01:29:44,310 --> 01:29:42,080
the new testament and the point being

2551
01:29:46,550 --> 01:29:44,320
that there is some sort of

2552
01:29:48,709 --> 01:29:46,560
energetic wavelength that gets kicked

2553
01:29:50,390 --> 01:29:48,719
picked up to a much higher degree that's

2554
01:29:53,510 --> 01:29:50,400
more than the sum of its parts when

2555
01:29:56,310 --> 01:29:53,520
people gather around a shared vision

2556
01:29:58,709 --> 01:29:56,320
that it's something i call we space

2557
01:30:00,550 --> 01:29:58,719
right it's just it's it's incredibly

2558
01:30:02,390 --> 01:30:00,560
powerful i've experienced it in numerous

2559
01:30:04,390 --> 01:30:02,400
gatherings that i've been a part of

2560
01:30:06,550 --> 01:30:04,400
where you have as much as yes it's true

2561
01:30:07,910 --> 01:30:06,560
that we should also

2562
01:30:10,310 --> 01:30:07,920
join together with people who maybe

2563
01:30:12,550 --> 01:30:10,320
don't see the things say things the same

2564
01:30:14,470 --> 01:30:12,560
way we do but nevertheless when you do

2565
01:30:16,070 --> 01:30:14,480
gather together with people in a

2566
01:30:19,189 --> 01:30:16,080
heartfelt way

2567
01:30:21,910 --> 01:30:19,199
and you align on a shared purpose right

2568
01:30:24,790 --> 01:30:21,920
that it seems like the universe joins

2569
01:30:27,510 --> 01:30:24,800
hands with us in that process and the

2570
01:30:29,669 --> 01:30:27,520
energy resonance that's generated is

2571
01:30:31,590 --> 01:30:29,679
much greater than some of its parts and

2572
01:30:34,149 --> 01:30:31,600
it's enough to begin to really change

2573
01:30:35,830 --> 01:30:34,159
the structure of our civilization so and

2574
01:30:38,950 --> 01:30:35,840
it changes certainly the people that are

2575
01:30:40,709 --> 01:30:38,960
involved so yes i completely agree and i

2576
01:30:42,870 --> 01:30:40,719
i that's one of the trends i'm really

2577
01:30:45,030 --> 01:30:42,880
excited about that's happened even

2578
01:30:46,709 --> 01:30:45,040
within ufo twitter you and i have been a

2579
01:30:48,950 --> 01:30:46,719
part of different groups that have split

2580
01:30:51,110 --> 01:30:48,960
off and join together around different

2581
01:30:53,510 --> 01:30:51,120
topics and gotten to know each other in

2582
01:30:55,110 --> 01:30:53,520
more you know multi-dimensional ways

2583
01:30:56,629 --> 01:30:55,120
there's so many

2584
01:30:58,390 --> 01:30:56,639
positive benefits that come from that

2585
01:31:03,669 --> 01:30:58,400
that i would encourage more of that for

2586
01:31:07,590 --> 01:31:05,590
well we'll conclude on that it's been a

2587
01:31:09,990 --> 01:31:07,600
pleasure uh getting back to the liminal

2588
01:31:12,390 --> 01:31:10,000
frames uh microphone and we really want

2589
01:31:14,149 --> 01:31:12,400
to thank everybody who has been with us

2590
01:31:16,470 --> 01:31:14,159
on this journey whether you've been with

2591
01:31:17,430 --> 01:31:16,480
us from the start or just now picking up

2592
01:31:19,110 --> 01:31:17,440
the show

2593
01:31:20,310 --> 01:31:19,120
we really want to say our thanks to you

2594
01:31:23,350 --> 01:31:20,320
and look forward to continuing this

2595
01:31:25,030 --> 01:31:23,360
conversation with you in the weeks and

2596
01:31:27,430 --> 01:31:25,040
months ahead

2597
01:31:28,550 --> 01:31:27,440
as we conclude may the quality of our

2598
01:31:31,270 --> 01:31:28,560
questions

2599
01:31:34,229 --> 01:31:31,280
shaped by a desire for understanding

2600
01:31:35,990 --> 01:31:34,239
enhance our journey of discovery and may

2601
01:31:38,310 --> 01:31:36,000
our travels broaden the sphere of our

2602
01:31:41,430 --> 01:31:38,320
consciousness reminding us that new

2603
01:31:44,149 --> 01:31:41,440
discoveries beget new horizons

2604
01:31:49,310 --> 01:31:44,159
as always adventure awaits we'll see you

2605
01:31:53,110 --> 01:31:51,440
[Music]

2606
01:31:59,420 --> 01:31:53,120
[Laughter]